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Housing Bubble Bursting?

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rogerwatland said:
You could guess that I don't understand the nature of a future's contract, but it may not reflect well upon you:shrug:



It may be a likely bet, even highly likely in some areas. But Nothing is a Sure Bet.
Okay Roger, I did not know what your knowledge is for future contracts and what they represent. You are stating that you do have rudimentary knowledge.

So you know that the purpose of the futures contract is to hedge risk but for who? What is the contract price telling you, Roger?

One thing it is telling me Roger, the expectation of the price of housing going forward in time is for the price to decline. Now, if I am a home builder and I have excess inventory, say in the Boston market, I can sell contracts equal to the value of the decline in price I will accept for the Boston market index. Now I am all set to offer discounts on prices of my homes in the way of concession or outright price reductions and break even on the combined transactions.

So, it a way, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Another thought, say you are a business that invests in risky mortgages where the home is bought with low credit scores and 100% LTV (80% first, 20% second). If I can stand some loss of principle but I want to hedge the resale value, I can sell contracts equal to the exposure that I believe the resale value is under the original purchase price. I can now offer a short sale knowing that I can make up most of the loss on the futures contract.

Again, it becomes self-fulfilling when defaults occur; home resale prices can drop below the purchase price and the holder of the second mortgage does not get wiped out. Or the same scenario for a 95% LTV first mortgage hedging.

It appears to me Roger, the people who are selling contracts represent people who have the most exposure to a price decline in housing and therefore the most risk to hedge. In order to find buyers, sellers have to offer a discount to fair value. Right now, it looks like -8.3% overall. Once the price declines are realized in the housing market and reflected in the index, and new contracts are being offered, a bigger discount may be necessary in order to find buyers.

Like you say Roger, it is not a sure bet on the magnitude, however, enough people with exposure to a price decline are betting that it will happen. :flowers:
 
Oh yes you can.

Steve Owen said:
The simple fact is, Bobby... you cannot live in the house if you cash in the investment.
I do appraisals quite often for people "cashing in the investment" while still living in the house. That's what cash out refis are all about. I don't think its a good idea, but millions do it.
 
Builders hit the brakes

http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/16/news/economy/housingstarts/index.htm
Builders hit the brakes
Latest reading of housing starts, permits shows more of a slowdown than expected as builders continue pull back in once hot sector of economy.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
August 16 2006: 12:16 PM EDT


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The closely watched home building market showed more signs of trouble Wednesday as a report showed builders slowed their pace of housing starts and building permits fell more than expected in July.

Housing starts came in at an annual pace of 1.795 million, according to a Census Bureau report, down from the 1.84 rate in June, which was revised lower. It is also less than the forecast of 1.81 million of economists surveyed by Briefing.com.

Building permits, seen as a measure of builder confidence, fell to an annual rate of 1.747 million from a 1.869 million pace. Economists had forecast a decline to 1.84 million.

The declines are even more substantial from year-earlier levels, with housing starts down 13 percent from a year earlier and permits off nearly 21 percent. Permits hit a record high in September 2005, while starts reached a seasonally-adjusted record in January of this year.

Hit to economy
The slowdown is important because home building has become an important component of the U.S. economy. In the second quarter of 2005, investment in residences added 1.11 percentage points to the gross domestic product, the broad measure of the nation's economic activity. But in the second quarter it subtracted an estimated 0.4 percentage points.

David Seiders, chief economist with the National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) estimates it will subtract even more from economic growth in the third quarter.

"With the start numbers now in place for July, there's no doubt the contraction is going to be larger," he said.

In addition, the Labor Department estimates that more than 3 million people work directly in residential construction, and that the sector was responsible for about 10 percent of the nation's overall gain in employment in all of 2005.

But the sector has already trimmed nearly 25,000 jobs since January, according to Labor Department figures, and the slower housing starts and permits suggest even more slowing is ahead.

That slower outlook is also confirmed by a survey of members by the NAHB released Tuesday that showed builder optimism sank for a seventh consecutive month in August to its lowest level in 15 years.

"The weakening process now engulfs all of the regions," said Seiders about his group's confidence survey. "The West was holding together quite well, but it too has come down rapidly."

And a number of publicly-traded home building firms have cut their forecasts for new homes, revenue and earnings in recent weeks.

Builder Toll Brothers (Charts) said the current slump in residential construction is unlike any it has seen in 40 years, with a glut of new homes on the market causing the slowdown rather than the typical reasons for a slump - a rise in interest rates or downturn in employment.

A separate report from the Census Bureau showed that in June the supply of homes completed and available for sale stood at 132,000, a record level, and 28 percent above year-earlier levels.

But Seiders said while the slowdown in housing starts and permits further hit builders' results, it would be good news for the industry if it helps to cut into the supply of homes available for sale.

"I think we've been expecting to see this kind of trend develop," said Seiders about the cutback in new building. "We're gratified that it is. The builders have been talking about problems on the demand side. We did over produce and over build and there needs to be a movement away from those frenzied highs."

The slowdown in real estate has economic implications beyond builders' finances and payrolls.

Home price appreciation has been a key driver in household wealth, and the cooling real estate market could also cut into consumer spending, as home owners are no longer able to tap into their home equity to finance their spending.

Wednesday's housing starts report is just the latest sign that the white hot real estate market of 2005 may already be in a recession.

On Tuesday, the National Association of Realtors reported that more than one real estate market out of three has seen prices fall from highs of the last year. That trade group had earlier said that housing has switched from a "seller's market" to a "buyer's market."

"Next week's new and existing home sales releases will likely show further weakness in home sales, as the housing market slows to a more sustainable pace," said Phillip Neuhart, economist for Wachovia. "Thanks to inventory concerns, we expect housing starts to actually under-perform home sales as builders attempt to off-load some excess inventory."
 
My niece reports that a friend told her that a builder-member of her church is asking for prayers as he is sweating a sack full of cookie cutters that haven't sold and he is about to go down the tubes if one or two don't sell pretty quickly. Let me guess - The construction loans are dominoing and he is having to pay more and more every month.
 
One of my buddies from back in the day called me the other day...I haven't seen him in about a year...he does sheetrocking. He's good at it too...he's not some hack. He's looking to buy some fixer-uppers and wants me to search for him. Fortunately he's in a good financial situation...but it certainly does not bode well for the industry when people like him need work.
 
No you can't...

Greg Myers said:
I do appraisals quite often for people "cashing in the investment" while still living in the house. That's what cash out refis are all about. I don't think its a good idea, but millions do it.

Once you've done a cash out re-fi to 100 percent or more of value, what is your equity ownership interest in the house? Nada.

It is true that you can take some cash against the equity build-up in a property where you live... but, to cash in the investment you either must give up the house or start all over again paying for it.
 
Invest in it, not pay for it.

Steve Owen said:
Once you've done a cash out re-fi to 100 percent or more of value, what is your equity ownership interest in the house? Nada.

It is true that you can take some cash against the equity build-up in a property where you live... but, to cash in the investment you either must give up the house or start all over again paying for it.
Their ownership interest is "control of the property". They don't "pay for it", they "invest in it". Because they have control they can also live in the investment. They do not desire to have equity in the property, they merely want to have the value grow so that they can borrow more money. Paying off the mortgage is not a goal of people with this mindset.
 
This is merely a matter of semantics. You have to have a place to live. If you choose ownership, you get some equity return. Many people call that an investment. I think of an investment as the use of money for capital appreciation or interest return.

Yes, the one advantage I can think of in having a house where you have no equity is that no one can tell you to leave so long as you make the payments. In a rental contract, the lessor can tell you to leave as soon as the term is up (except for rent controlled properties). The lessor is an investor, the homeowner, really, is not.
 
The problem with anyone extracting the equity appreciation while living in the house, although they may "own" the house, they still have to make the monthly payment. It is all a matter of cash flow. They have the problem, sooner or later, where there is a mismatch of cash coming in versus cash going out, unless you argue that all their investments are winning one, never a loser or the business cycle always operates in their favor.

Of course, that is the same scenario that is taught in real estate investing; nothing down and cash flow neutral. Everyone gets rich ... NOT.
 
Please remember...

I did note that home ownership has some investment aspects to it... enhanced by tax policy.

Here's some interesting stuff about the rent vs. own analysis:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/RealEstate/TurnAProfitOnRisingRents.aspx

For those of you who remember that I dropped my REIT investment last year; note that it was mainly in second homes and not mainly in apartments. It continued to go up after I dropped it, but not as much as the commodities I went to.

Of course, investing of any kind is a bit risky...

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperModels/ItsAPauseNotARecession.aspx

That's why lots of people limit their investments to home ownership. My personal philosophy is that it's more risky to do nothing than it is even to do the wrong thing.
 
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