I'm not surprised..

[George Hatch]

150 years ago we would have bought most of our food directly from the food producers at a local farmer's market, with no middleman involved. Then the neighborhood markets bundled the food products from the producers and later bought the food from the wholesalers. With the farmers and ranchers operating at ever decreasing margins.

We used to sell SFR appraisals by basically going door-to-door with the loan originators. And still can when dealing with lenders which operate outside of the GSE and other high volume resellers. No matter what, that transition was always going to occur at some point whether sooner or later. 20 years ago most people bought their Nikes from a storefront down at the mall. Not no more. Now most shoes are sold online.

But now appraisers object to the point that selling to a wholesaler nets a lower margin than selling directly to the end user. They apparently think appraisals are special.

 

[J Grant]

Stop crying. The only aspect (fee) appraisers get blamed for is how they acted with trainees during the last runup which resulted in the gross oversupply of appraisers. A big mistake that almost no appraisers repeated this time around. (which demonstrates that the appraisers recognize their previous mistake for what it was and how it has affected them since). If the residential appraisers hadn't chased the short dollar the AMCs would never have had the leverage it takes to pit the appraisers against each other they way they did. And continue to do when the demand is insufficient to engage the supply.

Why are fees different by location? It isn't because of the AMCs - they operate everywhere. The variable is the ratio between supply and demand.

The technology which has enabled the market for services to integrate would have continued to advance, of course. So blast bids would have eventually happened no matter what. But I never see any of you attribute to the internet and e-commerce the effects on this business which they have wrought on their own. It's as if some of you think that if AMCs didn't exist then you could still generate business by blasting unsolicited faxes all over town and waiting for your answering machine to take the call.

As for regulation, you might want to lower the base in your voice when you complain about the effects of regulation on your business interests. And refrain from being such an ingrate.

That's because if it wasn't for the heavy hand of govt meddling in the mortgage lending business you wouldn't even be here. Me neither. The regulations you're talking about are what created the majority of demand for appraisal services in the mortgage lending business. And by extension are what created opportunities for self-employment that you have been using. Appraisals are an unfunded mandate that has been imposed on the lenders against their will. From the perspective of these lenders, appraisals amount to a tax on their operations and a drag on their productivity. There are good reasons for why the govt imposed that drag on their productivity but don't kid yourself - nobody would deal with appraisers if they didn't have to.

We are well aware of the role and past events - -

Technology exists today, and yet we see direct order lenders without an AMC pay the appraiser C and R while the same order is through an AMC takes a fee cut to the AMC. That has nothing to do with technology. That is a policy decision stakeholders make to benefit their cronies or themselves. Technology does not make such decisions - people do. Feebidding is ONLY on the AMC segment for GSE orders, so no, fee bidding would not inevitably happen due to technology. What a crock - excuse me for being blunt. Tech has affected many industries or professions, yet I still do not see a mass-fee bid to get work, and what they charge the customers is higher.

Do I sound like an ingrate? What? Please get back to me after you had to do what I did: spend down my savings to avoid capitulating to low AMC fees and rebuilding a client base that took over five years to do post-HVCC. Or perhaps reach out to the numerous appraisers who had to leave the business or not do any lender work because of AMC"s

Lenders can see appraisals as a nuisance, but lenders will be subject to some form of govt regulation and oversight regarding collateral valuations of any kind as long as they back their loans with tax payer funds - if they were self funded they could do whatever they want -o

 

[alebrewer]

Germany is the only industrialized country I'm familiar with outside the US, but it's interesting that Germany has the big box stores just like US. But the German culture is such that most grocery items - bread, meat, fruits and veggies - are still purchased at the neighborhood Metzger, backerei, or obststand.

 

[J Grant]

150 years ago we would have bought most of our food directly from the food producers at a local farmer's market, with no middleman involved. Then the neighborhood markets bundled the food products from the producers and later bought the food from the wholesalers. With the farmers and ranchers operating at ever decreasing margins.

We used to sell SFR appraisals by basically going door-to-door with the loan originators. And still can when dealing with lenders which operate outside of the GSE and other high volume resellers. No matter what, that transition was always going to occur at some point whether sooner or later. 20 years ago most people bought their Nikes from a storefront down at the mall. Not no more. Now most shoes are sold online.

But now appraisers object to the point that selling to a wholesaler nets a lower margin than selling directly to the end user. They apparently think appraisals are special.

You have it backward. Appraisals are "special" in a bad way, because appraisals are professional service, not a ocnsumer mass market product like food or sneakers - their business is a whole other discussion and comparison.

Appraisals is a profession, with individuals charging X $ for their time/service. Appraisals are subject to regulations, as they should be for taxpayer backed lending work, and those regs have been changed to profit a third party ( AMC ) at the expense of the appraiser.

 

[George Hatch]

Do I sound like an ingrate? What? Please get back to me after you had to do what I did: spend down my savings to avoid capitulating to low AMC fees and rebuilding a client base that took over five years to do post-HVCC. Or perhaps reach out to the numerous appraisers who had to leave the business or not do any lender work because of AMC"s

Lenders can see appraisals as a nuisance, but lenders will be subject to some form of govt regulation and oversight regarding collateral valuations of any kind as long as they back their loans with tax payer funds - if they were self funded they could do whatever they want -o

Yes, of course you sound like an ingrate. You would have never even become an appraiser if not for govt regulation, and you wouldn't have been able to earn a living on the self-employed basis if not for the lenders trying to figure out how to improve their bottom line by outsourcing the appraisal itself, and later outsource the handling and management thereof. Everything the lenders are doing is in direct response to the increasing limitations on how they are allowed to act.

That's your starting point for analyzing how we came to this current point. Not what previously existed as of 2005. The appraisal business looked like a regular on-the-clock job up through the 1970s and evolved from there in parallel to the ever increasing regulations imposed on the lenders by the govt. The SFR fee appraisal business didn't just suddenly get birthed fully grown via immaculate conception in 1980.

 

[George Hatch]

You have it backward. Appraisals are "special" in a bad way, because appraisals are professional service, not a ocnsumer mass market product like food or sneakers - their business is a whole other discussion and comparison.

Appraisals is a profession, with individuals charging X $ for their time/service. Appraisals are subject to regulations, as they should be for taxpayer backed lending work, and those regs have been changed to profit a third party ( AMC ) at the expense of the appraiser.

You are as incorrect as is humanly possible. "The market" isn't limited to individuals. Different "markets" exist for different goods and services. The consumer of one service goes on to be seller of a larger service. Duh.

 

[J Grant]

Yes, of course you sound like an ingrate. You would have never even become an appraiser if not for govt regulation, and you wouldn't have been able to earn a living on the self-employed basis if not for the lenders trying to figure out how to improve their bottom line by outsourcing the appraisal itself, and later outsource the handling and management thereof. Everything the lenders are doing is in direct response to the increasing limitations on how they are allowed to act.

That's your starting point for analyzing how we came to this current point. Not what previously existed as of 2005. The appraisal business looked like a regular on-the-clock job up through the 1970s and evolved from there in parallel to the ever increasing regulations imposed on the lenders by the govt. The business didn't just suddenly get birthed fully grown via immaculate conception in 1980.

Every appraiser who does GSE work is grateful for a career based on it, and we recognize that govt regulation requires it - idk why you are compelled to lecture about the obvious.

However, we are not grateful for a third party that did not relieve us from lender pressure as their original role was intended, that makes appraising worse, not better, and on top of it, gouges our fees instead of charging their customer ( a lender or bank) for their service.

 

[George Hatch]

I think I have mentioned before that nobody other than appraisers cares how appraisers feel about ANY of the current conditions in the profession. Our feelings on the matter are immaterial to how govt has been acting, how the lenders have been acting or how the AMCs are acting.

"We have an assignment to appraise a typical dogbox SFR at 324 Sycamore Street. We have 4 other appraisers who will do it at $350 but if you'll do it for $325 then you can have the assignment. If you won't do it at that fee then that's okay with us because we're sure we can find someone else who will."​

And if you are being pressured to return the predetermined outcome then that's obviously a valid complaint. But when that is happening at any rate lower than 30% of the time then any reduction of client pressure to lie in an appraisal completely justifies 300+% of the collateral damage which has been imposed on the fee appraisers. Maybe 500% or 1000%.

Your economic interests are immaterial to the decision makers because you don't matter to them - they're only interested in reducing the percentage of appraisals which are/were based on client advocacy instead of impartiality and objectivity.

 

[alebrewer]

It wasn't so long ago that travel agencies were a profitable venture. It's just sad the government didn't step in and force Expedia, Priceline and the like to compensate the travel agencies for the business they stole...

 

[J Grant]

I think I have mentioned before that nobody other than appraisers cares how appraisers feel about ANY of the current conditions in the profession. Our feelings on the matter are immaterial to how govt has been acting, how the lenders have been acting or how the AMCs are acting.

"We have an assignment to appraise a typical dogbox SFR at 324 Sycamore Street. We have 4 other appraisers who will do it at $350 but if you'll do it for $325 then you can have the assignment. If you won't do it at that fee then that's okay with us because we're sure we can find someone else who will."​

And if you are being pressured to return the predetermined outcome then that's obviously a valid complaint. But when that is happening at any rate lower than 30% of the time then any reduction of client pressure to lie in an appraisal completely justifies 300+% of the collateral damage which has been imposed on the fee appraisers. Maybe 500% or 1000%.

Your economic interests are immaterial to the decision makers because you don't matter to them - they're only interested in reducing the percentage of appraisals which are/were based on client advocacy instead of impartiality and objectivity.

The above is a repeat lecture about the obvious, and you like to have the last word, so I will let you --some of the interchange was interesting, however.