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More On Free Comp Checks

How often do you actually get an appraisal order if they want a free comp check first and you won&#3

  • Never

    Votes: 207 30.8%
  • Maybe 1 out of 100 calls like that

    Votes: 107 15.9%
  • About 1 out of 50 calls like that

    Votes: 94 14.0%
  • About 1 out of 10 calls like that

    Votes: 117 17.4%
  • About 1 out of 5 calls like that

    Votes: 94 14.0%
  • I ALWAYS talk them into the order without giving a value first

    Votes: 53 7.9%

  • Total voters
    671
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If an LTV requires the subject to be worth 300k and the report comes in at 250k.

Why would you concern yourself with the LTV? it has nothing to do with your job description. When you state "requires to be worth" what are you saying? The LO gave you a target to shoot for? Directions on what the market value needs to be for the deal to be doable? Is this what you are saying? (rhetorical question)

It is useless, there is not going to be any loan generated. $725 paid by the borrower for something that cannot be used

Wrong. It was used to make a loan decision. Of course in your scenario, you would inform them upfront,free of charge, and in violation of numerous USPAP items that the deal isn't "doable" and you will not be able to hit the predetermined target.

The LO will ask "didn't u check the value before u set up an appointment and did an inspection?

I read statements like this and applaud the HVCC.

I had to do the report completely oblivious to the value of the property.

How you can predetermine values from the comfort of your office is beyond me but hey, you have 17 years in the business, what do I know.
 
No George! Don't come into this briar patch! You will never get back out!
Run! RUN, I TELL YOU!! :rof:

I'm seeing this and I'm now wishing I hadn't clicked into this thread.

A lot of people seem to think that what we sell is value opinions; but in my view that's really not true. There's nothing special or marketable about having a value opinion. Everyone and their dog has a value opinion. What makes our value opinions marketable - let alone relevant - are our assertions of complete impartiality. We assert that we will ignore what everyone else wants in the way of a value conclusion, including our own clients.

When an appraiser conspires with a client to cheat the other intended users of that impartiality, by doing things they certify in the appraisal that they don't do, that detracts from their own integrity as well as to the public's perception of the integrity of the entire appraisal profession. That's because even if there isn't a 3rd party to bear witness and "prove" an allegation to a state board, the client themself knows of the appraiser's compromise. There is no such thing as a secret in our society.

Moreover, word of that appraiser's "cooperation" gets around, no matter what the client promises to their co-conspirator. These clients tell their borrowers, they tell their peers, and if jammed on a bad appraisal by a lender they'll roll over on the appraiser in a heartbeat. There are other progressions, too. Once that client knows they have a weak appraiser on the hook they become emboldened to ask for more compromises, including more serious compromises, based on the appraiser's demonstrated lack of personal integrity. The next step for that client is to project those same expectations to every other appraiser they deal with.

This sequence and its results are not a matter of idle conjecture. All of us have had the experience of clients asking us to do something we're not supposed to do and then professing surprise based on their past experiences that "every other appraiser does it". Even though that's usually a gross exaggeration the fact remains that there is a kernel of truth in there somewhere, thanks to some donkey who decided their point of no return is defined by their chances of getting caught.

So in answer to what the professional appraiser would do in the above situation, the answer is that they wouldn't be so foolish as to allow themselves to get into that situation in the first place. They'd use the "no" word right up front and let the donkey client go find their team player appraiser somewhere else.

I mean, it's not as if that donkey client is actually going to be grateful to their team player or show any loyalty. Usually what happens is they come to expect those "favors" as representing the minimum basis of their relationship. Its inevitable that the longer that relationship goes, the greater that client's sense of entitlement becomes and the less room they leave that appraiser to say "no". Such a relationship is doomed to die within a matter of months, if even that long. So there is no long term payoff for laying on your back for a client, particularly for a loan originator client.

This might sound like a lot or moralizing, but it's not. It's really about being practical. If what we really sell are our reputations for playing it straight down the middle then doing anything to undermine that perception among our clients only plays to the strengths of the AVMs and the BPOs and the lowest common denominators in the appraisal business. Taken to its logical conclusion, undermining our own integrity detracts from the economic lifespan of our profession. The "public trust" is the only thing that keeps the appraisal profession alive.

It's not altruistic to diligently try always to do the right thing; it's ultimately a matter of survival over the long term.
 
Let me put it this way ken, California agrees with me on the USPAP definition of what an appraisal is. I'm sure they're joking too...

It makes no difference what the ASC, the FBI, the CIA or even the mods say about his methods, per his previous post, the state of California agrees with him, that's good enough for me.
 
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George,

You are from California. I am confident that as an appraiser with many years of experience and as an instructor with many years of experience that you would know the answer to the following question:

Apprazur makes the argument that California's OREA agrees with his interpretations concerning the definition of an appraisal, etc. This may take some research in reading some of Apprazur's posts over the last few days, but the question is: Is Apprazur correct on incorrect in his argument?

Thanks!
-ed-
 
Yes technically the LO is our client. I have over 17 years in the busines and have done thousands of reports that are now in closed loans files. Yes we are responsible to the lender.
However, I respectfully disagree. The borrower pays for the report not the lender. You have totally missed the separation from the borrower, the lender and the appraiser. The borrower goes to the lender asking for money. This is a service they pay for. The lender comes to the appraiser asking them to appraise the collateral for the loan. This is a service the lender pays for. The appraiser owes no duty to the borrower, and I know you respectfully disagree, but you are respectfully wrong.

RE-fi expample:
I get paid at the door COD.
If an LTV requires the subject to be worth 300k and the report comes in at 250k. It is useless, there is not going to be any loan generated. $725 paid by the borrower for something that cannot be used, will **** off the borrower in return The LO will ask "didnt u check the value before u set up an appointment and did an inspection? Oh no Loyal client of the last 11 years. I was told on the appraisal forum and by Att GEn. CUMO I had to do the report completely oblivious to the value of the property. It had to remain a secret unitl I finished the report or I was vilotating USPAP. If I said anything they would construe my fee was based on a predetermined value.
I can tell you, as a borrower, if I paid you $725 at the door I too would be ****** off. It would appear to me that I am paying for at least two free comp checks you did for others as part of the fee you are asking of me. I keep telling you over and over that the appraisal was used .. it was used by the lender to make a lending decision.
Having been in the business as long as you have, I can only tell you that I feel sorry for how you were trained. Your comments of "they all did comp checks" should show you where in your career the professional side of you got side tracked.
:unsure:


The issues are many and frankly the solutions are quite easy but impossible to achieve. Until appraisers realize that appraising is a profession, until appraisers realize that there are ethical ways to do what it is you are doing, and until appraisers demand payment for all of the services they provide and realize they are not slaves to their lending masters ... nothing will change.
I can tell you this "new way of doing business" is very unappealing to the old timers here ... it is not a business model we appreciate nor one we subscribe to. We see where it has gotten many younger appraisers. We see where it has gotten our business. I feel sorry for the training these appraisers received and can only tell them .. you are now failing the system ... but dont feel too badly .. the system failed you long ago. Go back to the person(s) that taught you this business and look them in the eye ... there will you find the hollow lack of ethics that have been instilled in so many.

I feel badly for these appraisers ... I really do.
 
George,

You are from California. I am confident that as an appraiser with many years of experience and as an instructor with many years of experience that you would know the answer to the following question:

Apprazur makes the argument that California's OREA agrees with his interpretations concerning the definition of an appraisal, etc. This may take some research in reading some of Apprazur's posts over the last few days, but the question is: Is Apprazur correct on incorrect in his argument?

Thanks!
-ed-

Like I said, I didn't wade through the entire train wreck before posting so I'm not exactly sure who said what. If someone could point me to the post where Apprazur made that claim I'd like to read it before commenting on it.
 
George,

I will try, but I have quite a few (four in fact) reports to write today and a time crunch for them.

PE,

Not sure what you time crunch is today. Do you have it in you to help with finding the post numbers?

-talking horse-
 
Like I said, I didn't wade through the entire train wreck before posting so I'm not exactly sure who said what. If someone could point me to the post where Apprazur made that claim I'd like to read it before commenting on it.

George,

I scrolled back through... read posts 560, 569, and 575-600. After that, it becomes pretty redundant. That should pretty much catch you up to speed on the direction of the discussion/debate for the past 3 or so days.

-ed-
 
It makes no difference what the ASC, the FBI, the CIA or even the mods say about his methods, per his previous post, the state of California agrees with him, that's good enough for me.


Well, I read it before it was changed, so what did I miss? :)
 
In California there is no requirement to comply with USPAP in regards to a "comp check."

Per USPAP, compliance with USPAP is required when either the service or the appraiser is obligated to comply by law or regulation, or by agreement with the client or intended users.

In California Appraisal is defined as:

"Appraisal" means a written statement independently and impartially prepared by a qualified appraiser setting forth an opinion in a federally related transaction as to the market value of an adequately described property as of a specific date, supported by the presentation and analysis of relevant market information.

California Business and Professions Code, Division 4, Part 3, 11302 (b).

Since a "comp check" is almost always used by brokers/LO's etc. as a preliminary step before asking their client to spend money on an appraisal or spending it themselves and not the actual report used in the underwriting process then it is not part of a federally related transaction and at this point there are no other intended users.

Where is the requirement for USPAP compliance?


This is where the reference to California came in ... it was provided by Mr Greg Boyd and Apprazur then began latching onto the definition saying California got it but no one else did.

Here you go George it was in Post 560.
 
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