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More On Free Comp Checks

How often do you actually get an appraisal order if they want a free comp check first and you won&#3

  • Never

    Votes: 207 30.8%
  • Maybe 1 out of 100 calls like that

    Votes: 107 15.9%
  • About 1 out of 50 calls like that

    Votes: 94 14.0%
  • About 1 out of 10 calls like that

    Votes: 117 17.4%
  • About 1 out of 5 calls like that

    Votes: 94 14.0%
  • I ALWAYS talk them into the order without giving a value first

    Votes: 53 7.9%

  • Total voters
    671
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Ever see the movie The Legend of Bagger Vance?

Toward the end... on the final hole when Junuh's ball moved while he was moving a twig from next to it where he was planning to strike the ball...

Junuh: The ball moved

Hardy: No

Junuh: I have to call a stroke on myself

Hardy: No! No! Don't do it! Please don't do it! Only you and me seen it, and I won't tell a soul. Cross my heart. Ain't nobody gonna know.

Junuh: I will Hardy, and so will you.

Hardy: You got to tell him not to do it, Bagger! It's just a stupid rule that don't mean nothing.

Bagger: That's a choice for Mr. Junuh, Hardy.

The moral is quite simple: Whether it can be proven in a court of law or not, if something happened, it happened--no matter how we try to parse it or explain it away. Someone will ALWAYS know. Ethics is not about getting away with something because nobody can prove it in a court of law. It is about having the integrity to do what is right even when nobody else is looking...


One of the true reasons Mr Ed I love the game of golf when played with honest men and women. You can tell more about a persons character on the golf course than in most other arenas ...I know this much ... Mr Junah would have been my friend and there isnt much I wouldnt have done to help in a time of need ... honesty, integrity, ethics, and respect for ones name is a concept he understood quite well.

By the way ... all of my golf buddies do as well.
 
I wish you guys had a point to make that I don't already know, it might make this thread more interesting.

So you admit that it isn't ignorance, but willfulness and a complete lack of ethics that is your driving motivation.

Ummmm....if you ever do go to court...and I'm sure you will...:laugh:..you might not want to take the stand in your defense. Your silence will serve you better. Trust me.
 
Yes technically the LO is our client. I have over 17 years in the busines and have done thousands of reports that are now in closed loans files. Yes we are responsible to the lender.
However, I respectfully disagree. The borrower pays for the report not the lender. RE-fi expample:
I get paid at the door COD.
If an LTV requires the subject to be worth 300k and the report comes in at 250k. It is useless, there is not going to be any loan generated. $725 paid by the borrower for something that cannot be used, will **** off the borrower in return The LO will ask "didnt u check the value before u set up an appointment and did an inspection? Oh no Loyal client of the last 11 years. I was told on the appraisal forum and by Att GEn. CUMO I had to do the report completely oblivious to the value of the property. It had to remain a secret unitl I finished the report or I was vilotating USPAP. If I said anything they would construe my fee was based on a predetermined value. :unsure:

It's apparent that you consider the MB trade to have been very very good to you.

You've been around long enough and have sat through enough USPAP courses for me to safely assume that you should know better than to consider the borrower to be anything other than the person who provided you access to the property.

The stated use of a mortgage appraisal is to provide the lender with a valuation for mortgage underwriting purposes. And when we refer to "the lender" we are not referring to the former used car salesman who ordered the appraisal and wears the big watch.

Your loan originator client is not the primary user of the appraisal and neither is the borrower. Whatever uses they have for an appraisal are off-label uses that are neither disclosed in the report nor consistent with the stated intended use. So when you make comments about borrowers not being able to use appraisals I have to ask the question - why do you consider that to be a bad thing? Based on your rationale they can't always use the results of a credit report or a title report, either, but they still end up paying for those.

Seriously, you need to step away from the mortgage brokers. They've apparently infected you with their team mentality. The biggest problem with that is that their team consists of them vs. the other intended users of the appraisal. When you join their team and do things you certify you don't do and demonstrate your bias towards the interests of parties you certify you have no bias towards it turns your certification into a lie and it turns you into ....well, you know where that's going. And this occurs whether you dork the value conclusion on the appraisal or not.

If you feel so strongly about playing for the MB team, why don't you disclose that in your appraisal report? Why don't you provide disclosures of the cooperative measures you take in these assignment and your reasons for doing them; i.e., to prevent the borrower from paying for a service they can't "use"?

I'll tell you why - it's because you know that if you were to disclose the truth it would render your report meaningless and unusable for it's stated intended use. You won't disclose what you're doing because - regardless of the verbal acrobatics you're attempting to land here - you know that doing these things is wrong. So in order to cover up the blatant misconduct you are forced to cover it up. Some people would call it lying. In an appraisal report. And then pretending that you're an upright citizen just like every other appraiser.

This is exactly the type of misconduct that the HVCC was ostensibly intended to prevent, and your MB relationships are exactly the type of relationships that it is intended to curtail. The collateral damage that is sweeping through our business is attributable to the abuses resulting from the MB team player mentality that has run rampant through our business for far too long.

One more thing - had the appraiser independence sections in FIRREA stood as originally written back in 1989 you would never have come up in an MB-centric appraisal shop and you wouldn't have learned all these bad habits from the people who trained you.
 
PE,

If I ever make it to New Mexico or you make it to Middle Georgia, we must go and play a round. I can assure you that with my skill level that I can make you look like one of the legends portrayed in the movie.

I am like you... I play with people who play by the rules. Admittedly we modify our rules with these: 1) Each player gets a mulligan on each 9, 2) If we didn't warm up, the first drive on the opening hole--if bad--is allowed a "do-over", and 3) out of bounds is a stroke but not stroke and distance.

We all agree to it, we all play it... I rarely win a round, but I have a good time because we are all playing on a level playing by the same rules and are confident that the others are not cheating.

-talking horse-
 
One of the true reasons Mr Ed I love the game of golf when played with honest men and women. You can tell more about a persons character on the golf course than in most other arenas ...I know this much ... Mr Junah would have been my friend and there isnt much I wouldnt have done to help in a time of need ... honesty, integrity, ethics, and respect for ones name is a concept he understood quite well.

By the way ... all of my golf buddies do as well.

When you really boil it all down to the basic ingredients, isn't that all we really have? our name? our reputation?

My dad drummed into me again and again... don't bring shame to our family name.
 
PE,

If I ever make it to New Mexico or you make it to Middle Georgia, we must go and play a round. I can assure you that with my skill level that I can make you look like one of the legends portrayed in the movie.

I am like you... I play with people who play by the rules. Admittedly we modify our rules with these: 1) Each player gets a mulligan on each 9, 2) If we didn't warm up, the first drive on the opening hole--if bad--is allowed a "do-over", and 3) out of bounds is a stroke but not stroke and distance.

We all agree to it, we all play it... I rarely win a round, but I have a good time because we are all playing on a level playing by the same rules and are confident that the others are not cheating.

-talking horse-


Mr Ed .... the round is on me and I will treat you to a very fine course. You may play by whatever rules you are comfortable with .... as for me and my friends we play by the Three No Rule ... No gimmies, No mullies, and No bullsh!t ......

It would be an honor to play with you sir and again the round is on me.
 
PE,

In your house, I have no problem playing by the "house rules". I have played it all ways... usually play by the game rules as a standard. I believe that in the round, all players play be the same rules.

When I play with one group who likes to play by our three modified rules, we set the rules before the first ball is hit off a tee.

Will start socking away some money for airfare to New Mexico...

-ed-

PS... to bring it back to the theme of the thread (an analogy)... USGA rules are the general governing rules of golf as USPAP is the general governing rules of appraising. Our "course rules" are similar to how state laws may trump USPAP.
 
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And when we refer to "the lender" we are not referring to the former used car salesman who ordered the appraisal and wears the big watch.

I'm glad I had just swallowed the last drop of my coffee or else it would have been sprayed on the computer screen.

ROFL.
 
I'm glad I had just swallowed the last drop of my coffee or else it would have been sprayed on the computer screen.

ROFL.

Greg,

I am curious... I think I have seen you reference almost spraying coffee or other liquids onto your computer screen over the years more than anyone else on the forum. Have you ever considered a "splash guard" for your screen that you can pull down while reading the forum? :rof: :shrug: :rof:

Have a great one!
-ed-
 
The issues are many and frankly the solutions are quite easy but impossible to achieve. Until appraisers realize that appraising is a profession, until appraisers realize that there are ethical ways to do what it is you are doing, and until appraisers demand payment for all of the services they provide and realize they are not slaves to their lending masters ... nothing will change.
I can tell you this "new way of doing business" is very unappealing to the old timers here ... it is not a business model we appreciate nor one we subscribe to. We see where it has gotten many younger appraisers. We see where it has gotten our business. I feel sorry for the training these appraisers received and can only tell them .. you are now failing the system ... but dont feel too badly .. the system failed you long ago. Go back to the person(s) that taught you this business and look them in the eye ... there will you find the hollow lack of ethics that have been instilled in so many.

I feel badly for these appraisers ... I really do.
A comp check would have saved all that time and energy. And the lender does not need a full 2-4 unit report to go forward. You have been so mono-foucused on what you believe to be an unethical process that you never address the the main issue. How does any of this spliiting hairs effect market value. The purpose!
The lender wants to know if the loan is supportable by the property value. That is the main reason we were given jobs. you keep skipping over the fact the market value is unaffected.
The final report, review and underwriting process is still in place no matter if u comp check a property 40 times a day.
This new and old appraiser. I come from the old school. I just been reading some of these arguments that miss the reason we have this part of USPAP. It is not comp checks. lol. It was to stop folks from trying too hard to hit value for pay.
 
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