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NEED a good definition of 'credible'

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For a definition, I'm not sure we can do better than the official USPAP one.

It depends on why a definition is needed, but if we are talking about the reality of review appraisals or state board investigations, that is what we have to work with as part of our 'minimums'.

In order to become any more specific than that, one would have to include an enormous amount of detail similar to what is in the standards.

But if we are talking about improving on that definition, that is a different matter.

If we were to set up a task force to write a new definition of 'credible' for USPAP it would be a daunting task. I personally like Jim's emphasis on the concept of logic, which is already in the comments to the definition. That is sort of the 'reasonable man' argument. But it might add something to the definition if it included a self referential mention of USPAP compliance and maybe what one's peers would consider credible.

But we all know that those last two concepts are also debated by many posters as being too vague.

This is an interesting discussion and I'm wondering if it will result in a consensus of reasonable men.:leeann2:
 
For a definition, I'm not sure we can do better than the official USPAP one.
Of course, but keep in mind the ASB was not trying to define credible in the abstract, but had a limited purpose. I tend to think they might have considered the use of alternative terms that mean something less than credible, like plausible. The settled on relative credibility.

In the first draft of the scope project, they proposed the completely circular definition that credibe meant having done what is necessary for the intended use. That is: you have to do what is necessary to produce credible results; and you produce credible results when you do what is necessary. I wrote them about two pages on that.

In the second draft, they came up with the current partial reference to Black's. I wrote them about two pages on that, too. One point I made is that by citing Black's, they invite people to cite the rest of Black's definition which suggests that credible means believable on its own, not just believe relative to some narrow context.
 
Interesting, Steven.

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In the context of USPAP (as opposed to courts) one exercise I have found helpful in enhancing clarity is to find the instances of the use of a defined term within USPAP, the AOs, and even the Q&As and actually substituting the definition and comment for the term.

Using the USPAP definition of term (instead of the term itself) in the context of how the authors use it sometimes either consolidates one's thoughts or raises more questions.
 
And the next blind man felt the elephants tusk and said...

"this is hard".

Why do you suppose they put it in the definitions?

"Worthy of belief". End of discussion.

cred·i·ble (krµd“…-b…l) adj. 1. Capable of being believed; plausible. 2. Worthy of confidence; reliable. --cred“i·ble·ness n. --cred“i·bly adv.
 
Pam, are you creating a USPAP dictionary? :)

The problem that besets the document can be summarized by the illustrious poster above who made this very credible statement

We have not identified any authority, or source, or body of knowledge to make most of them meaningful.

That is the problem in a nutshell. I listened to a state board member who said (paraphrased), I want to look at the report, and see if the pictures of the houses used for comps look reasonably similar construction and age and see that the value derived appears to be reasonable for what I would expect and if it is CREDIBLE, then I am not going to pass judgments over opinions that different on adjustments or any number of otherwise minor mistakes even if there are several mistakes.

If a house is valued near its "real" value then mistakes like slab vs wood subfloor or not mentioning it has 2 hot water tanks, etc. to me are meaningless piffle. We have plenty of appraisers that need taken to the woodshed over large overvaluatons...or in the case of some litigation appraisals undervaluations. Most make dumb comments that are not CREDIBLE to support their bias.
Like the rural report where the appraiser came in 50% below 2 other separate appraisals. He said that the 20 year old dwelling RCN was $45 per SF when it was easily $80. And gave it an effective age higher than its actual age although it was in average condition even by his own comments. Made large location adjustment because it was rural (so was his comps) etc. Or the Log home that was one story over basement and was called a "two story" log home...never mind not one log was below the grade of the 1st floor, the walkout and sides were concrete block and regular frame. on and on.
 
"Worthy of belief". End of discussion.

cred·i·ble (krµd“…-b…l) adj. 1. Capable of being believed; plausible. 2. Worthy of confidence; reliable. --cred“i·ble·ness n. --cred“i·bly adv.
You shoud have ended when you said end of discussion and run like the wind, :) instead of showing how the real definition of credble contradicts USPAP's.

Credible doesn't mean reliable in USPAP. The changes to the 2004 editiion removed every appearance of the word reliable. Someone does a Desktop on Monday for 200k. Then, on Tuesday the same appraiser, same property with an interior inspection finds 40k worth of damage and comes up with 130k value. "Concepts and Principles of USPAP" argues that both of those appraisals are "equally credible." But they are not equally reliable.
 
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That was from American Heritage Dictionary. Guess it does muddy the waters, huh?
 
Please post your definition of "credible" as it relates to appraisals and USPAP.

The definition is taken out of context for just about every Appraisal and review, especially for the status quo that is the client in most cases, in my eyes. USPAP, the entire book has been taken out of context on the same note; so, rubber stamped Appraisals are credible to the intended user, so the purpose can concur with the intended use. The "credibility" with regard to Real Estate Appraisal(s) is stretched to concur with whatever the LO/MB and other status quo clientele make it out to be. As long as the estimate is credible for their agenda, then it's ok. Unfortunately, it's not OK for the economy.

Every word in the dictionary and every book known to man may be manipulated. Perception is stronger than money; most of the time perception controls the medium for exchange. Reasoning with logical economic evidence is credible to me. USPAP is not well written and does not mean squat to no one outside the Appraisal profession; that's credible enough for them.

But, when a person cares about the economy and practice methods that relate to Appraising real estate, the word credible takes on a logical meaning. It's actually meaningful and understandable; if the Appraisal is explained properly in an economic manner (verbiage).

A credible opinion based on economic study is more important than an illusionary estimate. An estimate is just a number and a number only. An opinion however, are words that can change the perception of the estimate for the purpose of the intended user's use; it just doesn't work that way and, that's not credible overall, as a whole.

An opinion being expressed, as explained above, is what makes an Appraisal credible. Knowing something tomorrow, when I think I finished an Appraisal, can change the entire perspective of my opinion. The scope of work is an ongoing process (but since there is a due date, they may get a lesser, credible opinion of an estimate - pre-determined due dates may create an un-credible opinion of value, due to it's time). Just because the estimate is this zzz amount, doesn't really mean anything without an opinion of it. The estimate may be reasonable to a LO/MB, but the opinion may state otherwise. Unfortunately, rubber stamps and in-ept (posers) don't use an opinion, they are the status quo's *****s, whom don't have an opinion; the reporting is setup with "prop" wording (verbiage) that has no economic creativity nor relevance; they don't know that they even are worthy of an opinion.

The source of human capital, from which the opinion is derived from, is more important than shopping around for low bidders and posers.

The word, "credible" as it relates to USPAP, may be too broad to explain, due to the so-called flexibility (abuse) of the scope of work. The Scope of Work rule is already being manipulated. Once USPAP, the in-epts and *****s are manipulated, the perception of credible is twisted for the negative, not the positive. Perception can go both ways, "good or bad".

If 75% of America decides that the dollar is not worthy of belief just because they don't like George W. Bush, that gives the perception that the dollar is weak, therefore, the opinion of the majority is credible enough to destroy the economy due the abuse of the dollar (not caring!). The value of inflation may rise, even though the actions of economic agents show that the dollar is important; because that's all they have to work with when it comes down to a medium of exchange.

Without an opinion of value from the source of human capital, the medium of exchange does not exist, unless trade/barter/assumptions are planted. However, LO/MB's and other status quo clientele aren't interested in the opinion nor how credible an opinion is, there interest is getting a medium of exchange they can sell and then, the secondary market can trade it/and someties sell off. The opinion is forgotten, the complexity is hidden, the credibility of it all is a twisted perception that sits at the back of the bus.

Clients/Intended users are interested for what their belief of the estimate should be. USPAP has no significant role to anyone outside the Real Estate Appraisal world. If it's credible to the client, then the estimate is credible. lol - but what's so funny, a credible opinion of an estimate could change the entire perception of the value, but they don't care.

Credibility is dumbed down by the minimum requirements of USPAP and the manipulation of the scope of work rule. The estimate is not a value; a credible opinion, competently and economically explained, is a value; and the estimate in terms of dollars (medium of exchange) is the reflection of such.

I went to a high school reuinion and two of my classmates were a LO/and an Appraisal reviewer at a bank. They both told me they know what a rubber stamp Appraisal was, and that's what they target. They even insisted that they don't want to work with me due to the fact that I spoke of economics and the credibility of the opinion of value. It turned them off. They even knew that USPAP doesn't require many things and that's what they want: un-credible reports with the verbiage that will sell within the status quo process. they were open about it. The word credible to them meant, "a sale". No matter what. They even noted that Real Estate Appraisers are basically worthless and in the way of the process. Ironically, they also said that they kiss their Appraisers' @$$ to get what ever was needed to get the loan through.

Credibility to the home owners and consumers I pick up as clients understand what that word means for the given purpose. They look at me with a dumb expression, or as if I think they are dumb; by asking them questions similar to yours, Mizz Pam; they appeared insulted that their common sense were in doubt.

I question home owners: what would be more credible to you, "a careful observation no matter what the estimate was, or a rubber stamped appraisal and an appraisal from someone whom doesn't understand economic reasoning and logic"? Overwhelmingly, they voted a careful observation. And.., they are angry when they find out their home or property may be over valued, then of course their equity sold, and then being dismissed, left "wanting".

Those property owner's intentions vs' the status quo clientele perceptions/and or views of the Appraisal and the process it's involved in; the home owner's are more credible than the status quo. Common sense has a lot to do with credibility. But common sense doesn't have a chance when credibility is hidden and pushed aside for the benefit of an un-credible sale.

Timing has a lot to do with it: for example, yesterday a consumer thought he/she knew everything about a home they purchased, but one month later they will find out by a credible source they were duped into a sale that is now considered, "not worthy of belief". Oh no! - what to do? they flip it with skippies and posers. They have to get that sale and therfore, inflation is reported and the perception of credibility is thrown out the window. Where was the logic and reasoning in the first place? The estimate was there, but the opinion is hidden (the economic reasoning of logic based on facts and common sense).

The economy as a whole is not credible, "worthy of belief", and the perception is in shambles/split. Inflation is more dangerous than what some may think. The interest rate is only being used as a perceptive tool right now. But, it asists inflation, in my eyes.

No one runs the economy, it's too complex. But it can be explained to an extent for helpful, credible, purposes.

The (status quo) use of the estimates are not worthy of belief, in my eyes; many opinions are worthy of belief from the proper human capital, but the way the estimates are used are far from credible.

JP Morgan Chase Bank has reduced our fees. My average residential Appraisal report is between 40 and 45 pages long and I think that is very short. $292 is what they want my mentor and I want to split now. You want to know how credible my reports are going to be? Think about it...

I have better things to do with my time to kiss JP's @$$ when I get certified. They better start kissing mine, and paying for what it's worth, soon! Their clients will become my clients and they will be reduced to only an intended user with detailed instructions from the client of the Appraiser. That's a credible process with a real fee. And if my reports won't be accepted, I'll just turn that issue into my state board and complain/argue how credible my Appraisal is vs' their gold prize skippy located on McArthur Dr. :) :) :) :)


Sincerely,


And thanks for listening to my opinion
 
I fail to see the problem.

I don't think using a normal dictionary muddies the waters at all.
credible |ˈkredəbəl|
adjective able to be believed; convincing : few people found his story credible | a credible witness. See note at BELIEVABLE.
• capable of persuading people that something will happen or be successful : a credible threat.

DERIVATIVES
credibly |-blē| |ˈkrɛdəbli| adverb

ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin credibilis, from credere ‘believe.’
believable |biˈlēvəbəl|
adjective
(of an account or the person relating it) able to be believed; credible.
• (of a fictional character or situation) convincing or realistic.

DERIVATIVES
believability |biˌlēvəˈbilitē| |bəˈlivəˈbɪlədi| |biˈlivəˈbɪlədi| |-ˈliːvəˈbɪlɪti| noun; believably adverb

THE RIGHT WORD

Believable is the most general of these terms, used to describe anything we accept as true, even in the absence of absolute proof (: a believable story about why she was late).

Credible also means worthy of belief or confidence and is often used interchangeably with believable, but it goes one step further: a credible excuse is one that is supported by known facts.

Creditable, often confused with credible, at one time meant worthy of belief but nowadays is used to mean respectable or decent, deserving of honor, reputation, or esteem (: leading a creditable life).

Something that is convincing is believable because it overcomes doubts or opposition (: a convincing performance), while something that is plausible may appear to be convincing or believable on the surface, but may not be so upon closer examination.

Valid means legally sound, just, or authoritative; a valid criticism seldom provokes opposition.

Cogent, on the other hand, means having the power to convince; a cogent argument is believable because of its clear, forceful, or incisive presentation.
worthy |ˈwərðē|
adjective ( -thier , -thiest )
deserving effort, attention, or respect : generous donations to worthy causes.
• having or showing the qualities or abilities that merit recognition in a specified way : issues worthy of further consideration.
• good enough; suitable : no composer was considered worthy of the name until he had written an opera.
noun ( pl. -thies) often derogatory or humorous
a person notable or important in a particular sphere : schools governed by local worthies.

DERIVATIVES
worthily |-ðəlē| |ˈwərðəli| adverb
worthiness |ˈwərðin1s| noun

ORIGIN Middle English : from worth + -y 1 .
belief |biˈlēf|
noun
1 an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists : his belief in God | a belief that solitude nourishes creativity.
• something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction : c.ontrary to popular belief, Aramaic is a living language | we're prepared to fight for our beliefs.
See note at opinion .
• a religious conviction : Christian beliefs | I'm afraid to say belief has gone | local beliefs and customs.
2 ( belief in) trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something : a belief in democratic politics | I've still got belief in myself.

PHRASES
be of the belief that hold the opinion that; think : I am firmly of the belief that we need to improve our product.
beyond belief astonishingly good or bad; incredible : riches beyond belief | the driving we have witnessed was beyond belief.
in the belief that thinking or believing that : he took the property in the belief that he had consent.
to the best of my belief in my genuine opinion; as far as I know : to the best of my belief, Francis never made a will.

ORIGIN Middle English : alteration of Old English gelēafa; compare with BELIEVE .
It might be I just happen to use the same dictionary as a reference as the authors of USPAP. I really don't know, but I don't seem to have as many problems with the language as others. All definitions are from the New Oxford American Dictionary.
 
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