Should an Appraiser Refund Payment

[Otis Key]

Okay, here is the senario:

I paid 300.00 for an appraisal. I submitted my loan package and didnt take that loan. So, I called for another appraisal for a different lender. The appraiser charged me only 125 this time. So, I submitted my loan package and everythig was fine... until the appraisal came back unaccepted by the bank. My loan officer told me that the Appriser's license is under review with that bank. So, I have to pay for another appraisal. I feel that the appraiser should have to either pay me back my 300 or have someone else do the appraisal.

His point is that I didn't pay 300 for the appraisal, only 125. So, should I only get the 125 back?

Ms. Boyd,

Something about this bothers me. Didn't figure part of it out until a few minutes ago when I clicked back and then saw Scotty's response (a fellow appraiser who I respect and who has a keen eye for obvious and not so obvious). It made me even more curious. So I just couldn't resist. And please understand that I do not mean this as a personal attack. I just feel a little confused.

It strikes me strange that you post this question here and yet still show having four posts with no reply to this thread that you started. But, after a little effortless research right here, I find:

http://appraisersforum.com/newbies-appraiser-wannabe/109962-failed-exam.html#post1229685

and

http://appraisersforum.com/newbies-appraiser-wannabe/109962-failed-exam.html

and finally (before this thread)

http://appraisersforum.com/newbies-appraiser-wannabe/109967-advice-appraisal-trainee-exam-2.html#post1231067

Now my reason for my inquiry is because I'm confused. Your first three posts were in reference to failing the exam (one of which - on the same day in different threads was asking for

Any good advice on Ca Exam prep

)

My confusion comes from the fact that you want to become an appraiser, take the courses & exam/s and are not able to pass. It goes further with the aspect that I have a hard time understanding that you would want to come into a profession with no guarantee of pay and then complain because an appraiser did his/her job but you're loan didn't go through, BUT only after you decided to not go through with the first one (that has the implications that it would have from your post).

From your post above, "you" paid for the appraisal, for whatever purpose that has yet to be stated. Yes. All borrowers pay the appraisal in a refinance and in many cases, for a purchase as well - it sure as hell isn't the bank. THEY want to make money, just like appraisers. You indicate that you "didn't take the loan" and "called for another apraisal for a different lender". Was this the same appraiser? Did you order the appraisal or did the lender? If you did, how did that (or the first one) get around the regs concerning the fact that the lender MUST order the appraisal, and even more concerning, how did the appraiser get around USPAP? And then you say "I submitted my loan package by the bank". As someone else so keenly observed and questioned, "are you a loan officer or a homeowner?" And I add, are you someone who wants to be an appraiser or someone looking for the answer you want to hear instead of the truth? Or what?

Your initial posts were about not passing the basic appraisers' exam. And now you want get a refund for an order that resulted in a completed work product? I see frustration, confusion and, unfortunately, vindictiveness. Sorry if that offends you but from the few posts I saw, it is what I see. If you would post more about this with clarification that would prove me wrong, then I would be happy t apologize for misinterpreting your post, all of your posts.

TOLLing back to my corner............

 

[Odette Boyd]

Ok I understand everyones point. Thanks for the comments. Let me explain. The appraiser was hired by the loan officer. He was also the same appraiser who appraised the house when it was initially purchased. I was told that I "homeowner" had to pay COD... cash on delivery. And yes he performed a service but, it was a disservice. By the appraisal being under review with the bank for almost 2 weeks has held up my loan. It is the only condition that the bank wants cleared up.

After finding out why he is on a "blacklist" it explained everything.
He told me that someone had been using his license at several banks and didn't know that he was on a watch list for this bank. However, he has done nothing to try to clear it up with the bank. It has been over 2 weeks now and I have to get another appraisal. The whole thing that bothers me is the fact that he has not tried to clear this up with the bank.

I don't believe in work for free. However, If I buy something that is deffective then I will bring it back. I just don't like to get over on.

I think this whole ordeal is another leasson on appraising for me. Just the other side of the coin. lol! I'd feel better if the appraiser would try to rectify the situation that's all. I hope that clears it up for everyone.

 

[Odette Boyd]

Ms. Boyd,

Something about this bothers me. Didn't figure part of it out until a few minutes ago when I clicked back and then saw Scotty's response (a fellow appraiser who I respect and who has a keen eye for obvious and not so obvious). It made me even more curious. So I just couldn't resist. And please understand that I do not mean this as a personal attack. I just feel a little confused.

It strikes me strange that you post this question here and yet still show having four posts with no reply to this thread that you started. But, after a little effortless research right here, I find:

http://appraisersforum.com/newbies-appraiser-wannabe/109962-failed-exam.html#post1229685

and

http://appraisersforum.com/newbies-appraiser-wannabe/109962-failed-exam.html

and finally (before this thread)

http://appraisersforum.com/newbies-appraiser-wannabe/109967-advice-appraisal-trainee-exam-2.html#post1231067

Now my reason for my inquiry is because I'm confused. Your first three posts were in reference to failing the exam (one of which - on the same day in different threads was asking for [/I])

My confusion comes from the fact that you want to become an appraiser, take the courses & exam/s and are not able to pass. It goes further with the aspect that I have a hard time understanding that you would want to come into a profession with no guarantee of pay and then complain because an appraiser did his/her job but you're loan didn't go through, BUT only after you decided to not go through with the first one (that has the implications that it would have from your post).

From your post above, "you" paid for the appraisal, for whatever purpose that has yet to be stated. Yes. All borrowers pay the appraisal in a refinance and in many cases, for a purchase as well - it sure as hell isn't the bank. THEY want to make money, just like appraisers. You indicate that you "didn't take the loan" and "called for another apraisal for a different lender". Was this the same appraiser? Did you order the appraisal or did the lender? If you did, how did that (or the first one) get around the regs concerning the fact that the lender MUST order the appraisal, and even more concerning, how did the appraiser get around USPAP? And then you say "I submitted my loan package by the bank". As someone else so keenly observed and questioned, "are you a loan officer or a homeowner?" And I add, are you someone who wants to be an appraiser or someone looking for the answer you want to hear instead of the truth? Or what?

Your initial posts were about not passing the basic appraisers' exam. And now you want get a refund for an order that resulted in a completed work product? I see frustration, confusion and, unfortunately, vindictiveness. Sorry if that offends you but from the few posts I saw, it is what I see. If you would post more about this with clarification that would prove me wrong, then I would be happy t apologize for misinterpreting your post, all of your posts.

TOLLing back to my corner............

:new_newbie: I have posted a reply hopefully that will clear this up. This forum is new to me so, hopefully I have posted the reply to all of these remarks in the right place.

And as far as me looking for answers.... I came here to find them. Just haven't had the time to respond.(You mentioned I haven't replied to the 4 post) I have been very busy all day and just now getting home. Sorry, I didn't know I was on a time clock.

And what does this whole senario have to do with me not passing the exam. This episode deffinately isn't in the books. I've never seen the word "blacklist" in any of my books.

Oh, yes! The work was completed however, usuable. What are the normal procedures when an appraiser has his license under review with a bank? How is that resolved? I understand that it is the responsibility of the mortage company to do the research on the appraiser before he hires them. So, I am no longer totally upset with the appraiser. Now, it's both the appraiser and the loan officer. I just didn't like the fact that the appraiser never contacted the bank to resolve the situation. It almost makes me wonder if he is the one who really holds the license.

 

[Brockway]

The appraiser was hired by the loan officer. He was also the same appraiser who appraised the house when it was initially purchased.

It was the lender's responsibility to make sure the appraiser was on their approved appraiser list before they placed the order. Your appraiser did the job he was hired to do and should be paid. He even gave you a discount on your second appraisal which he is not required to do. Your issue is with your loan rep not the appraiser.

 

[Mister Ed]

Ok I understand everyones point. Thanks for the comments. Let me explain. The appraiser was hired by the loan officer. He was also the same appraiser who appraised the house when it was initially purchased. I was told that I "homeowner" had to pay COD... cash on delivery. And yes he performed a service but, it was a disservice. By the appraisal being under review with the bank for almost 2 weeks has held up my loan. It is the only condition that the bank wants cleared up.

Odette, an appraisal being under review is beyond an appraiser's control and not a disservice on the appraiser's part. I will explain below the next quote.

After finding out why he is on a "blacklist" it explained everything.
He told me that someone had been using his license at several banks and didn't know that he was on a watch list for this bank. However, he has done nothing to try to clear it up with the bank. It has been over 2 weeks now and I have to get another appraisal. The whole thing that bothers me is the fact that he has not tried to clear this up with the bank.

Are you certain that he has done nothing to try and clear it up? What can he do? Has he said, "I am going to do nothing and the bank will just have to work through it"? I would imagine that at this point that the apraiser's hands are tied. Almost every appraiser on any "black list" finds out that he/she is on a black list when a mortgage broker sends an package to the lender and the appraisal is rejected/sent for review. To my knowledge, I am not on any bank/lender's black list, but if I am doing an appraisal ordered by a mortgage broker, then it is up to the mortgage broker to make sure whether or not I am on a black list/watch list.

I don't believe in work for free. However, If I buy something that is deffective then I will bring it back. I just don't like to get over on.

Why is the appraisal considered defective? Because it is being reviewed? If you become an appraiser, EVERY appraisal you do for secondary market will be reveiwed--especially as a "newbie.

I think this whole ordeal is another lesson on appraising for me. Just the other side of the coin. lol! I'd feel better if the appraiser would try to rectify the situation that's all. I hope that clears it up for everyone.

Remember, the appraiser works for the lender and not you. What does the lender want him to do to rectify the situation?

Odette, I am in NO WAY picking on you or attacking you. If you were the appraiser in that situation, I would be defending you and still wanting to know more.

 

[Otis Key]

:new_newbie: I have posted a reply hopefully that will clear this up. This forum is new to me so, hopefully I have posted the reply to all of these remarks in the right place.

And as far as me looking for answers.... I came here to find them. Just haven't had the time to respond.(You mentioned I haven't replied to the 4 post) I have been very busy all day and just now getting home. Sorry, I didn't know I was on a time clock.

Thank you for posting a reply, finally. There is no time clock. However, it showed to me a thread of consistent questioning. Not saying that is wrong. However, then when it's followed with this thread about demanding a refund for services that were ordered and performed, that tends to make me question your intentions. That being said, I apologize for my tone of my questions.

And what does this whole senario have to do with me not passing the exam. This episode deffinately isn't in the books. I've never seen the word "blacklist" in any of my books.

Please read my response above about an apparent trend. Again, the question was not clearly composes, as is typical for most posters. Part of my misunderstanding the complete picture I guess comes from my not interpreting your question and also from getting similar such demands from property owners who feel that they paid for a value and not for a professional service (and this one sort of smelled of a similar call I get almost monthly).

Oh, yes! The work was completed however, usuable. What are the normal procedures when an appraiser has his license under review with a bank? How is that resolved? I understand that it is the responsibility of the mortage company to do the research on the appraiser before he hires them. So, I am no longer totally upset with the appraiser. Now, it's both the appraiser and the loan officer. I just didn't like the fact that the appraiser never contacted the bank to resolve the situation. It almost makes me wonder if he is the one who really holds the license.

As far as "uNusuable". I have never heard of an appraiser being informed in advance that their license(?) was under investigation, except by the state appraisers board. A bank or lender, cannot revoke a license. Only the state can do that. Now, an appraiser can be "black listed" or "banned" or even "watched" by a specific bank, lender or investor. BUT, the appraiser typically NEVER knows until such a case as this happens. It is not the appraiser's fault for not knowing, while it may be his/her fault for being there in the first place. (I also find it hard to believe that an appraiser can know

He told me that someone had been using his license at several banks and didn't know that he was on a watch list for this bank.

that his/her license was being used illegally by someone else for sometime and not at least get a call from at least ONE lender to question a sale or adjustment. It is also interesting, from what you implied but did not state, that he was quick with a reason....that could be a determining factor in your final decision about what to do.)

It has been over 2 weeks now and I have to get another appraisal. The whole thing that bothers me is the fact that he has not tried to clear this up with the bank.

Two weeks in this profession is not a long time. I can almost guarantee that he did NOT get on that list in just 2 weeks. In fact, I would be willing to venture that this was the result of "something" over a long period of time. Also, it always takes longer to clear a name, for ANY reason, than it did for a name to get onto any list - just read about some of the people who still are working to clear their credit after someone stole their ID - some have apparently been attempting to clear their name for 20 years.

The final procedures for an appraiser to clear his name would not be MY concern at this point. It really doesn't matter to your situation. And again, his license is not under review by the bank - it's his status on the bank's approved list. You said "I understand that it is the responsibility of the mortage company to do the research on the appraiser before he hires them." Then if you understand that, then the next logical step is to stop whining about the appraiser and instead go after the LO. S/He should have verified that the appraiser was acceptable to the lender, investor, bank. S/He is the one who is responsible! NOT the appraiser.

I would suggest that you divert your complaints, gripes and concerns to the source. THE PRIME INDIVIDUALS who do loan paper processing. Seems to me that this INDIVIDUAL feel down on his/her job and would be the more likely candidate for a refund for the services that s/he should have known, just like us as appraisers should know about USPAP - fannie guidelines - etc.

The appraiser is not and was not your client! You indicated that the loan officer ordered the appraisal. Your confusion in posting and your statements are what originally prompted my first response. If you want to be an appraiser, then you have to know the difference between a client and a property owner; you have to know the regs; you have to know USPAP; you have to separate personal preference from facts and market data.

I wish you luck with your venture. However, I'd suggest that you forget about going after the appraiser. He was NOT the one who ordered the appraisal from someone that was on a watch or black list. BTW, I believe I remember reading that you had not been informed of this in school. And I'd be willing to bet that you were not also advised that it's very hard to find a mentor. Is that wrong teaching? No. You were in school, unfortunately, to learn how to pass the exam (SAD) instead of learning the business.

 

[DB]

If an appraiser is hired... and an appraisal is performed ... the fee is earned ... period. If they find out later that there are bodies in the basement, the fee is still earned. Period.

Once the job is done, the fee is earned. Refunds are a personal business decision of the appraiser who performed the appraisal. Period.

If it were me ... there would be no refund. Period.

If you plan to be an appraiser, you are going to find that several things are necessary to have, in addition to your education:

1. Tough skin - You are going to blamed with everything that has ever gone wrong in the real estate industry and every loan that doesn't close, for the rest of your existence in this business.

2. They just don't teach you everything in school - As Otis said, they teach you what you need to know to pass the test, not how to run a business or how this business works. Black lists, lender pressure, comp checks ... the fact that lenders, LO's and MB's will take a newbie appraiser and lead them straight to JAIL, with no conscience whatsoever, happens every single day.

3. This is a business - Your business ... run it like one or it will run you ... straight into the ground ... just like any other business. Go buy a gallon of milk ... drink it ... then take the carton back to the store and demand a refund ... Please let me know what happens....

Not picking on you at all ... just trying to help you with the realities of this business ... and you won't find it in books or in class ... you will find it here on this forum and in the daily trenches of experience ...

 

[TBear]

I agree

You said "I understand that it is the responsibility of the mortage company to do the research on the appraiser before he hires them." Then if you understand that, then the next logical step is to stop whining about the appraiser and instead go after the LO. S/He should have verified that the appraiser was acceptable to the lender, investor, bank. S/He is the one who is responsible! NOT the appraiser.

Otis, You took the words right out of my mouth!!:happy:

 

[Odette Boyd]

Thanks again for all your replies.

I should have said, "Now I understand it is the loan officer's job to make sure the appraiser is good with the bank."

When I first posted this thread I didn't know that. I assumed that the appraiser knew he was on black list with certain banks. And after I spoke with him, he did know that there was an issue with someone fasley using his license. Now, Im sure appraisers dont go around advertising this information. However, isn't this somewhat of a disservice when it causes a problem?

Ive spoken to the loan officer and he has informed me that the appraiser has not contacted the underwritter to try to clear this up. Therefore the loan officer is going to pay for another appraisal.

And for the empty carton comment. What does that have to do with tea in china??

Ive dropped a gallon of milk in the parking lot and they gave me another for free... Is everyone in this world all for gain?? Let's just forget about service?? This person knew he wasn't good with some banks. However, he is not doing anything about it. At least not with this bank.

What goes around comes around.

If you want to stay in business you straighten things out with the customer. Otherwise, you lose business. As in this situation.

If someone is going around collecting money for a service that isn't really benificially to the public why should he be paid? THis person is going to continue to collect money when he knows that his license is only good with certain banks. Then when the appraisal is rejected... he doesn't care. He just moves on to the next appraisal. Is that ethical?

He might as well be selling empty cartons of milk lol!

Reminds me of a time my brother bought a box from some guys who said they were selling laptops. His wife told him not to buy it. But, he did. When he got the box it wasn't empty. It contained a nice empty brief case.. lol!!! He bought a 300 dollar brief case. lol!! And he thought it was a laptop inside the box.

I thought it was funny at first. But, now I feel his pain.

Oh, I am also a victim of identity theft. Trust me, I know the ramifications of that story too

Everyone have a good night.

 

[Otis Key]

Never mind - no matter what is said, typed or posted, you have formed your opinion and there is nothing here that can change that. I wish you well in the future and in your future job, whatever that will be, because I doubt seriously it will be in appraising.

I'm out of this one.