Significant Appraisal Assistance (1004p)

[J Grant]

Another blatant strawman. I would go so far as to say that's a seriously dishonest allegation for you to levy at me. When have I ever defended the excesses of the bankers? You know better than that; or at least you should know better than that.

I don't disagree with you about the conduct of the bankers or the need for them to act more cautiously and with greater regard for safe/sound. I just disagree that regulating the lenders - and what they as users consider to be be meaningful - falls within the scope of practice for appraisers.Regardless of form or structure our appraisal standards exist to address the professional standards for conduct and practice by appraisers. Not as a supplemental layer of regulation over the conduct of the lenders.

I was not levying that charge at you George, rather at fannie, certain big box lenders and whichever agencies apply when they abuse the system.(or are too weak or compromised to take a stand tor better practices-AF and ASB ).

,The only problem I have with some of your arguments is you try to have it both ways, / make the case for two diametrically opposed opposites. Such as you recognize that some of these stakeholders are capable of behaving horribly on the one hand, yet argue they should be given free rein to do so via lax regulations on the other hand.

 

[J Grant]

Another blatant strawman. I would go so far as to say that's a seriously dishonest allegation for you to levy at me. When have I ever defended the excesses of the bankers? You know better than that; or at least you should know better than that.

I don't disagree with you about the conduct of the bankers or the need for them to act more cautiously and with greater regard for safe/sound. I just disagree that regulating the lenders - and what they as users consider to be be meaningful - falls within the scope of practice for appraisers.Regardless of form or structure our appraisal standards exist to address the professional standards for conduct and practice by appraisers. Not as a supplemental layer of regulation over the conduct of the lenders.

I was not levying that charge at you George, rather at fannie, certain big box lenders and whichever agencies apply when they abuse the system.(or are too weak or compromised to take a stand tor better practices-AF and ASB ).

,The only problem I have with some of your arguments is you try to have it both ways, / make the case for two diametrically opposed opposites. Such as you recognize that some of these stakeholders are capable of behaving horribly on the one hand, yet argue they shouold be given free rein to do so via lax regulations at the same time.

 

[George Hatch]

On a lighter note...of what Will I be unable to do...

Escape my house to go an inspection when my litter mates get on my nerves!

Drive my car- it will save on miles okay that is good my driving skills will go down lol.

Stop for lunch or coffee after an inspection since I am out anyway

Meet real people at sites and interact ,

On a not so light note...newer appraisers will lack field experience, how will they even be able to give a context to what the inspectors send them? Fannie's vision is for appraisers to sit at a computer pumping out disconnected "data" analysis. Pretty hard to retain the role of an independent opinion, the one and only non commission not out to make $ contingent on closing...the one possible safety brake in the profit train driving at warp speed to close that loan fast, before borrower changes mind or switches lenders - if the collateral valuation stinks or the digitized UW is wonky, someone else;s problem down the line.

Fee appraisers have been losing market share to AVMs and BPOs and other alternatives for years. The 2055s ate up some of the market demand for 1004s; their usage became way more common than the old drive-by form.

So in some ways it was inevitable that these would come up at some point and siphon some more assignments out of our book of work.

I also think that appraisers have good reason to fret about the fees and about the reduction in 1004 business and it's effect on the overall supply/demand equation and by extension on the appraisal fees.

Some of us may get starved out of the business altogether. I certainly don't see any reason why appraisers in most areas should even be considering running a trainee, but then again I've been saying that continually since 2001 or so.

 

[J Grant]

Fee appraisers have been losing market share to AVMs and BPOs and other alternatives for years. The 2055s ate up some of the market demand for 1004s; their usage became way more common than the old drive-by form.

So in some ways it was inevitable that these would come up at some point and siphon some more assignments out of our book of work.

I also think that appraisers have good reason to fret about the fees and about the reduction in 1004 business and it's effect on the overall supply/demand equation and by extension on the appraisal fees.

Some of us may get starved out of the business altogether. I certainly don't see any reason why appraisers in most areas should even be considering running a trainee, but then again I've been saying that continually since 2001 or so.

In some odd twist it seems fee appraisers are getting some market share back from former AVM or BPO-or else why are so many desktop short forms now being ordered for HELOC/other? ( not referring to bifurcated 1004P but to the ext inspect desktops)

I never saw much 2055 work from lenders , just occasional ones for pre foreclosure or a stray small equity loan or other use order

Will see where this all goes...perhaps slightly off topic but I can envision future need for appraisers to sort out the myriad AVM's, statistical programs and Zillow/Knock/Offer pad activity based on value logarithms buy and sell.

In the past, appraisers were valued because often we were the keepers or finders of hard to come by data. Now the world has an opposite problem- it is flooded with data, and a 10 year old can click on their smart phone and get an instant value from a number of sites.

The problem then becomes which of those myriad data programs or insta value or internet buy and sell transactions to believe as credible and meaningful...

 

[George Hatch]

I was not levying that charge at you George, rather at fannie, certain big box lenders and whichever agencies apply when they abuse the system.(or are too weak or compromised to take a stand tor better practices-AF and ASB ).

,The only problem I have with some of your arguments is you try to have it both ways, / make the case for two diametrically opposed opposites. Such as you recognize that some of these stakeholders are capable of behaving horribly on the one hand, yet argue they shouold be given free rein to do so via lax regulations at the same time.

I have never advocated for a reduction in the amount or enforcement of regulation on these lenders. A discussion about what I believe is/isn't compliant with our professional standards is not an endorsement of users making dumb or unethical decisions.

I aspire to observe and report "what is" even if people don't want to hear it. As an appraiser that ethos should be familiar to you. I could tell you all what you want to hear if that was important to me. If stroking your ego and marketing my rants was important to me I could probably monetize it and sell T-shirts and coffee cups and mouse pads.

I don't do that. I won't do that. I've got lots that I would like to share with appraisers, but I have nothing that I would like to sell to them. There are appraisers who are apparently doing that, so if that appeals to you then you have your options.

 

[George Hatch]

In some odd twist it seems fee appraisers are getting some market share back from former AVM or BPO-or else why are so many desktop short forms now being ordered for HELOC/other? ( not referring to bifurcated 1004P but to the ext inspect desktops)

I never saw much 2055 work from lenders , just occasional ones for pre foreclosure or a stray small equity loan or other use order

Will see where this all goes...perhaps slightly off topic but I can envision future need for appraisers to sort out the myriad AVM's, statistical programs and Zillow/Knock/Offer pad activity based on value logarithms buy and sell.

In the past, appraisers were valued because often we were the keepers or finders of hard to come by data. Now the world has an opposite problem- it is flooded with data, and a 10 year old can click on their smart phone and get an instant value from a number of sites.

The problem then becomes which of those myriad data programs or insta value or internet buy and sell transactions to believe as credible and meaningful...

IMO we should want our users to always choose the appraiser-developed valuation as being the superior solution - regardless of the SOW that's involved.

 

[J Grant]

I have never advocated for a reduction in the amount or enforcement of regulation on these lenders. A discussion about what I believe is/isn't compliant with our professional standards is not an endorsement of users making dumb or unethical decisions.

I aspire to observe and report "what is" even if people don't want to hear it. As an appraiser that ethos should be familiar to you. I could tell you all what you want to hear if that was important to me. If stroking your ego and marketing my rants was important to me I could probably monetize it and sell T-shirts and coffee cups and mouse pads.

I don't do that. I won't do that. I've got lots that I would like to share with appraisers, but I have nothing that I would like to sell to them. There are appraisers who are apparently doing that, so if that appeals to you then you have your options.

I appreciate that...but allowing weak and loophole laden professional standards ( USPAP, focus here is their stance, or lack of it about inspections), the inability of USPAP to sync with real world serious issues threatening appraisal ethically and professionally is astounding.

They spend two years tweaking a word in a definition while the profession burns around them. Having such a cryptic, evasive, weak standards USPAP serves as an endorsement, or more accurately, enables users to make dumb or unethical decisions.( as far as the valuation side)

the link I posted in thread did say the ASB will revisit inspections since USPAP is a living document and can change with markets.


Perhaps US PAP needs to add a chapter of an additional set of that applies to specifically mortgage lending work, since that is the area where the most egregious abuses occur and where the great volume of loans occurs that will impact residential housing /.
.

 

[George Hatch]

I dunno about that. I believe in the cliche that "bad decisions are made during good times". Every time the market "corrects", that's when the users ramp up their expectations for appraisers. We do way more in an appraisal report in 2019 than we did in 1989, I can tell you that. I just don't see that trend for those assignments reversing any time soon.

What is happening going forward is that the advances in technology AND communication have been enabling us to do things we couldn't readily do before. That trend isn't going to reverse any time soon, either. And IMO that's the trend for which this issue is the most direct result; not changes or weaknesses in the fundamentals of who is doing what.

In my view, the current version of USPAP is but an expression of those fundamentals, not the origin of them.

 

[J Grant]

What is happening going forward is that the advances in technology AND communication have been enabling us to do things we couldn't readily do before. That trend isn't going to reverse any time soon, either. And IMO that's the trend for which this issue is the most direct result; not changes or weaknesses in the fundamentals of who is doing what.

While software and AVM capability has changed the tech aspect, the 1004 P has nothing to do with that

The 1004P does change the fundamentals of who is doing what. The WHO is a RE Agent or other non appraiser, The WHAT : is the subject inspection they perform. It simply allows a runner to be used instead of an appraiser,for the subject inspection, a practice which for decades was prohibited for mortgage origination 1004 by Fannie's own certs.

 

[George Hatch]

So what? The inspection isn't the appraisal and the appraisal isn't the inspection.

And what did I tell you about the foolishment of citing Fannie as a relevant reference in an appraisal standards discussion? Fannie knows what they want and what they think is meaningful to them. That's what a Fannie reference is good for.