When Customary Fees Become Unreasonable

[Eli]

exactly... because the management fee "premium" that is charged above/beyond appraiser fee would become exposed, as all a consumer would need to do is essentially subtract the min appraisal fee from what they're "being charged for an appraisal"

Yep. "Minimum" is a key word. Let the separation begin. Many AMC's are for separation because they are scared of the current market structure too for more than one reason. Both from a profit standpoint and possible legal ramifications from states or the Federal Trade Commission.

 

[DiverMike]

I commend you Mike in your efforts, and to all the appraisers who have the luxury of being able to "Set" you own fees and actually getting those fees, good for you, but in reality my fees have really not increased in 18 years, however since the implementation of the C&R , I have been a victim of theft of services, at least it feels as such, If I do not accept the crumbs from the AMC, well I cant eat, in reality the AMC does not contribute to my report and basically offers to pay 1/4 -2/3 of the fees I would normally charge; and when prompted to "bid", I never get a call back. I DO NOT feel that I should be paying for a MAJOR bank's sister AMC company to do absolutely nothing but collect a fee for work that they did not contribute. I do not feel that I should be responsible to pay the AMC overhead out of my pocket. It has forced appraisers to slash prices in order to work. Some AMC's charge half or more of the appraisal fee, some charge $10 fee. There should be a set minimum in pricing to the appraiser consistent with some national standard, or at least a higher percentage rate split like 95% of total fees charged by AMC, or a flat fee of $10 across the board forcing the AMC to pay its own bills. This inconsistency in the AMC market is completely repulsive. I am basically paying a middle man to upload a report. Words cannot express my frustration with this current industry.

You ALL are expressing my exact views. Its why I joined the American Guild of Appraises www.appraisersguild.org (1(301) 220-4100 Jan Bellas ) and why I proposed the following as MINIMUM National or State fees any AMC can be allowed to offer: http://mfford.com/html/c___r_fees.htm Its a LONG read, so you can just scroll to the end if you want.
Basically never less than $515; most probable around $585, and when they insist on a certified appraiser $685.

Yesterday our (AGA) executive VP, Leo Regensburger spoke at the Virginia Real Estate Appraisers Board in support of VaCAPs proposed VA fee as a deminimus ($450); and also presented OUR suggestions for what's reasonable. I'm told the board asked him more questions than any other speaker and was HIGHLY receptive because its based on federal civil service pay scales. The VaCap rep., (Pat Turner) told Leo after "We won"; meaning that with our help they won the day over REAVA and others opposing minimum fees. I haven't gotten all the details or feedback yet, but THIS is what we can do when we work together!

Yesterday, one of my favorite die hard "there's nothing we can do about anything" blog posters sent me an email asking me to call him. He's going to join the guild today AND get active. Now, THAT is what we all need to do...GET INVOLVED! I know some resist because we ARE a union, but I ask this "If I can join and be a Chapter Leader as a long time Republican, why can't you? OUR guild is NOT anti business OR pro socialism. We are simply Pro Professional Appraiser. We seek win-win solutions for everyone. We "get it"; Unions and our members cannot survive if there are NO JOBS! We PROMOTE new jobs; not policies that retard them.

While writing this, my 'friendly' (appraiser owned AMC called.) Their main lender now wants AMC 'to determine' what the problem is when ever there is a CU score of 4 or 5. THAT is a separate review, and one they (lender) so far are not willing to pay for or even identify as being their request. I mentioned to him that CU itself is apparently fraudulent in my analysis of its patent and hes asked that I send him this, so he can send to the lender and they can send to FNMA. http://appraisersblogs.com/collater...logs+»+Appraisal+news+at+AppraisersBlogs.com) btw-the patent application was SENT to me by a fed! Its a public record BUT I didn't know about it, did you?

What the hell..what's the worst that can happen? They sue me and then I file charges with SECC? (Qui Tam suit would not work since the 'fraud' I allege occurs on the other end of the transactions I think.

I COULD use a little moral support though. Id hate to think I'm rising economic suicide and my peers don't even care. How about joining the guild now?

I commend you Mike in your efforts, and to all the appraisers who have the luxury of being able to "Set" you own fees and actually getting those fees, good for you, but in reality my fees have really not increased in 18 years, however since the implementation of the C&R , I have been a victim of theft of services, at least it feels as such, If I do not accept the crumbs from the AMC, well I cant eat, in reality the AMC does not contribute to my report and basically offers to pay 1/4 -2/3 of the fees I would normally charge; and when prompted to "bid", I never get a call back. I DO NOT feel that I should be paying for a MAJOR bank's sister AMC company to do absolutely nothing but collect a fee for work that they did not contribute. I do not feel that I should be responsible to pay the AMC overhead out of my pocket. It has forced appraisers to slash prices in order to work. Some AMC's charge half or more of the appraisal fee, some charge $10 fee. There should be a set minimum in pricing to the appraiser consistent with some national standard, or at least a higher percentage rate split like 95% of total fees charged by AMC, or a flat fee of $10 across the board forcing the AMC to pay its own bills. This inconsistency in the AMC market is completely repulsive. I am basically paying a middle man to upload a report. Words cannot express my frustration with this current industry.

 

[DiverMike]

I commend you Mike in your efforts, and to all the appraisers who have the luxury of being able to "Set" you own fees and actually getting those fees, good for you, but in reality my fees have really not increased in 18 years, however since the implementation of the C&R , I have been a victim of theft of services, at least it feels as such, If I do not accept the crumbs from the AMC, well I cant eat, in reality the AMC does not contribute to my report and basically offers to pay 1/4 -2/3 of the fees I would normally charge; and when prompted to "bid", I never get a call back. I DO NOT feel that I should be paying for a MAJOR bank's sister AMC company to do absolutely nothing but collect a fee for work that they did not contribute. I do not feel that I should be responsible to pay the AMC overhead out of my pocket. It has forced appraisers to slash prices in order to work. Some AMC's charge half or more of the appraisal fee, some charge $10 fee. There should be a set minimum in pricing to the appraiser consistent with some national standard, or at least a higher percentage rate split like 95% of total fees charged by AMC, or a flat fee of $10 across the board forcing the AMC to pay its own bills. This inconsistency in the AMC market is completely repulsive. I am basically paying a middle man to upload a report. Words cannot express my frustration with this current industry.

You ALL are expressing my exact views. Its why I joined the American Guild of Appraises www.appraisersguild.org (1(301) 220-4100 Jan Bellas ) and why I proposed the following as MINIMUM National or State fees any AMC can be allowed to offer: http://mfford.com/html/c___r_fees.htm Its a LONG read, so you can just scroll to the end if you want.
Basically never less than $515; most probable around $585, and when they insist on a certified appraiser $685.

Yesterday our (AGA) executive VP, Leo Regensburger spoke at the Virginia Real Estate Appraisers Board in support of VaCAPs proposed VA fee as a deminimus ($450); and also presented OUR suggestions for what's reasonable. I'm told the board asked him more questions than any other speaker and was HIGHLY receptive because its based on federal civil service pay scales. The VaCap rep., (Pat Turner) told Leo after "We won"; meaning that with our help they won the day over REAVA and others opposing minimum fees. I haven't gotten all the details or feedback yet, but THIS is what we can do when we work together!

Yesterday, one of my favorite die hard "there's nothing we can do about anything" blog posters sent me an email asking me to call him. He's going to join the guild today AND get active. Now, THAT is what we all need to do...GET INVOLVED! I know some resist because we ARE a union, but I ask this "If I can join and be a Chapter Leader as a long time Republican, why can't you? OUR guild is NOT anti business OR pro socialism. We are simply Pro Professional Appraiser. We seek win-win solutions for everyone. We "get it"; Unions and our members cannot survive if there are NO JOBS! We PROMOTE new jobs; not policies that retard them.

While writing this, my 'friendly' (appraiser owned AMC called.) Their main lender now wants AMC 'to determine' what the problem is when ever there is a CU score of 4 or 5. THAT is a separate review, and one they (lender) so far are not willing to pay for or even identify as being their request. I mentioned to him that CU itself is apparently fraudulent in my analysis of its patent and hes asked that I send him this, so he can send to the lender and they can send to FNMA. http://appraisersblogs.com/collater...logs+»+Appraisal+news+at+AppraisersBlogs.com) btw-the patent application was SENT to me by a fed! Its a public record BUT I didn't know about it, did you?

What the hell..what's the worst that can happen? They sue me and then I file charges with SECC? (Qui Tam suit would not work since the 'fraud' I allege occurs on the other end of the transactions I think.

I COULD use a little moral support though. Id hate to think I'm rising economic suicide and my peers don't even care. How about joining the guild now?

I commend you Mike in your efforts, and to all the appraisers who have the luxury of being able to "Set" you own fees and actually getting those fees, good for you, but in reality my fees have really not increased in 18 years, however since the implementation of the C&R , I have been a victim of theft of services, at least it feels as such, If I do not accept the crumbs from the AMC, well I cant eat, in reality the AMC does not contribute to my report and basically offers to pay 1/4 -2/3 of the fees I would normally charge; and when prompted to "bid", I never get a call back. I DO NOT feel that I should be paying for a MAJOR bank's sister AMC company to do absolutely nothing but collect a fee for work that they did not contribute. I do not feel that I should be responsible to pay the AMC overhead out of my pocket. It has forced appraisers to slash prices in order to work. Some AMC's charge half or more of the appraisal fee, some charge $10 fee. There should be a set minimum in pricing to the appraiser consistent with some national standard, or at least a higher percentage rate split like 95% of total fees charged by AMC, or a flat fee of $10 across the board forcing the AMC to pay its own bills. This inconsistency in the AMC market is completely repulsive. I am basically paying a middle man to upload a report. Words cannot express my frustration with this current industry.

 

[bnmappraisal]

If I do not accept the crumbs from the AMC, well I cant eat, in reality the AMC does not contribute to my report and basically offers to pay 1/4 -2/3 of the fees I would normally charge

RSI - I don't begrudge any appraiser for this. I've been there, done that (accepted low fees just to make some kind of $$$ for my family) so I don't judge anyone for it. Thankfully I've been able to grow my business (still a one man shop) and find better, higher paying clients. They are out there, but it does take some digging and yes ... sometimes LUCK.

 

[RSI]

You ALL are expressing my exact views. Its why I joined the American Guild of Appraises www.appraisersguild.org (1(301) 220-4100 Jan Bellas ) and why I proposed the following as MINIMUM National or State fees any AMC can be allowed to offer: http://mfford.com/html/c___r_fees.htm Its a LONG read, so you can just scroll to the end if you want.
Basically never less than $515; most probable around $585, and when they insist on a certified appraiser $685.

Yesterday our (AGA) executive VP, Leo Regensburger spoke at the Virginia Real Estate Appraisers Board in support of VaCAPs proposed VA fee as a deminimus ($450); and also presented OUR suggestions for what's reasonable. I'm told the board asked him more questions than any other speaker and was HIGHLY receptive because its based on federal civil service pay scales. The VaCap rep., (Pat Turner) told Leo after "We won"; meaning that with our help they won the day over REAVA and others opposing minimum fees. I haven't gotten all the details or feedback yet, but THIS is what we can do when we work together!

Yesterday, one of my favorite die hard "there's nothing we can do about anything" blog posters sent me an email asking me to call him. He's going to join the guild today AND get active. Now, THAT is what we all need to do...GET INVOLVED! I know some resist because we ARE a union, but I ask this "If I can join and be a Chapter Leader as a long time Republican, why can't you? OUR guild is NOT anti business OR pro socialism. We are simply Pro Professional Appraiser. We seek win-win solutions for everyone. We "get it"; Unions and our members cannot survive if there are NO JOBS! We PROMOTE new jobs; not policies that retard them.

While writing this, my 'friendly' (appraiser owned AMC called.) Their main lender now wants AMC 'to determine' what the problem is when ever there is a CU score of 4 or 5. THAT is a separate review, and one they (lender) so far are not willing to pay for or even identify as being their request. I mentioned to him that CU itself is apparently fraudulent in my analysis of its patent and hes asked that I send him this, so he can send to the lender and they can send to FNMA. http://appraisersblogs.com/collateral-underwriter-under-hood?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+AppraisersBlogsAppraisalNewsAtAppraisersblogscom+(Appraisers+Blogs+»+Appraisal+news+at+AppraisersBlogs.com) btw-the patent application was SENT to me by a fed! Its a public record BUT I didn't know about it, did you?

What the hell..what's the worst that can happen? They sue me and then I file charges with SECC? (Qui Tam suit would not work since the 'fraud' I allege occurs on the other end of the transactions I think.

I COULD use a little moral support though. Id hate to think I'm rising economic suicide and my peers don't even care. How about joining the guild now?

I read you proposal and I had those same thoughts when I took a 1025 and calculated my time researching, traveling, inspection, and actual writing, time and came to about 35/hr, not including overhead, a far cry from the usual, I do not think those who might oppose your proposal actually read it completely nor actually calculated there time completely. I think your minimal fee is on point and logical, considering there has been no standard of living increase in our fees in like forever, sad but true. Its not a ceiling, but I bet that base fee is higher than most are getting now.

Thumbs up to LEO!! and the AGA !

WOW!!! that's is crazy no I did not know that;, With the AVM model being unreliable at best, the quest to remove the natural appraiser and replace them with the cyber analyst will continue to fail, no matter how much data they collect they will not be able to consistently produce a reliable automated valuation period. And now an automated CU unbelievable! It amazing that you came across that, I can't imagine a suit being brought against someone based or predicated on a fraudulent CU report and not knowing about this patent. That would be subject to subrogation by the E&O provider, (imo).,or at least be barred as a cause of action as hearsay, no expert testimony. The day the markets accepts cyber valuations will be the first day of the largest collapse in history. There is nothing good about that patent at all. But we knew what direction it was headed in (the AVM's), it was only a matter of time.

 

[RSI]

RSI - I don't begrudge any appraiser for this. I've been there, done that (accepted low fees just to make some kind of $$$ for my family) so I don't judge anyone for it. Thankfully I've been able to grow my business (still a one man shop) and find better, higher paying clients. They are out there, but it does take some digging and yes ... sometimes LUCK.

Yes you are a lucky one, with the BIG lenders owning these AMC's; you only "get what they offer", take it or leave it, and now the hard money banks that sell their paper, need to get a second appraisal preferably from an approved AMC, go figure; kinda feel like being robbed only with out the mask and gun.