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When Customary Fees Become Unreasonable

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Here is some info.

Google: "Appraisal fee schedule", and see all the appraisers that have not updated their advertised private work fee schedules in a decade.

You can't help people who won't help themselves.

But if you have some statistical folks looking for a fun time,
they could gather the data from these links and track the Cost of expense increases. This should answer any questions why there is a lack of trainees in this profession and why so many are dropping out, or not working their licenses.


http://www.vba.VA.gov/ro/cleveland/Nationwide_Maximum_Allowable_Appraisal_Fees.pdf
Active Appraisal Fee Schedule dated 2009

http://www.e-appraise.com/pdf/alamode_MedianFeeReport_0210.pdf
Mercury Fee Survey 2010

https://spmretail.sierrapacificmortgage.com/announcements/Appraisal_Fee_Schedule.pdf
Active Appraisal Fee Schedule dated 2012

http://msiloans.biz/Seller Guide/AIR/InHouse_Fee_Sheet.pdf
Active Appraisal Fee Schedule dated 2014

http://weslendwholesale.com/Forms/Library/Underwriting/LENOXfee.pdf
Active Appraisal Fee Schedule not dated

http://portal.mwfinc.com/index.php/.../22-fees/26-appraisal-fee-schedule?Itemid=217
Active Appraisal Fee Schedule not dated, click open All states fee schedule open

http://www.firstmortgage.com/Web Content/Wholesale/Wholesale Forms/AppraisalFeeSchedule.pdf
Active Appraisal Fee Schedule not dated,

http://www.benefits.VA.gov/HOMELOANS/appraiser_fee_schedule.asp
Current VA Fee Schedule

Yeah, it doesn't look like any of those Truth in Lending Act requirements are being followed either.

And note that other than the VA fee schedule, those others are for lenders, so that is the combined fees of AMC and appraiser.

.

Lack of trainees is more than just low fees. In the old days as soon as I felt my "trainee" was able to RELIABLY inspect and measure a property, AND accurately report conditions of comparables, I let them off on their own. Spot checking frequently and reviewing discrepancies. If the fee was $450, they got $225 of it. I provided the tools, maps, software, computer, data access, in house review and co signature with MY E&O. After three months they started becoming profitable for me to have. Now, SOWs require OUR personal interior inspection as well as comparable exterior inspections on ALL reports. Very little incentive for me to have a trainee if I have to do all the work anyway. Certainly not for half of $300 to $350. Aside from which my longstanding policy is to never pay or expect a trainee to work for less than $25 an hour, assuming an eight hour report. Oddly enough, my proposal COULD add GS 7 pay equivalent categories (AND relatively lower lender fees) IF they allowed the old model to be used; AND we could get a finding from TAF / ASB that direct supervision includes non inspection by supervisor as long as it is coupled with direct report review. Nothing definite, but its a possibility for discussion.
 
Taking the voices of the individial, adding them together to give them the power of the many, has nothing to do with socialism. Collective bargaining, yes. Socialism, not even close.

An oligopsony has market power in the appraiser business period in our current situation. There are way fewer buyers than sellers and as a result it is a violation of antitrust legislation, period, imnsho.
 
I really don't care about special interests. What I care about is capitalism. If capitalism can't exist, which it doesn't in our current market structure, then tell me the answer.
 
What is best for the public is paramount. I like to compare the appraisal profession to the health care profession and how the govt is involved. Talk to me along those lines of what is best for the public.
 
Talk to me what is BEST. BEST....BEST.....BEST............I am getting upset in case you haven't noticed.
 
What is best for the public is paramount.
Nothing you say is concrete. "Best" is relative and without an anchor to any event or outcome. "Public" describes no one. 99% of the "Public" in the catholic sense of all citizens, could care less about appraisers, and appraisals and most have preconception about us that are totally wrong...like the call I got from one who said "I know this is the value for the bank but really, what is it worth?" And, of course, "paramount" means supreme or more important than anything else, in other words redundant to the word "best". And after 26 years of FIRREA and all the morphology from USPAP in the meantime, we still do not have any sense of being "Best" in the public mind. We are no more trustworthy to the public than a used car salesman. It is emptor cavete - buyer beware.

One can argue that further regulation and diligent enforcement would improve our image. I think it has done the opposite. It has given people the impression that we are flawless and our appraisals are the product of an exact science. Regulation, thus, invites the perception that we have reduced appraisal to a formula and set prices by virtue of fiat. There is no regulation written in USPAP, FHA, VA, or Fannie/Freddy that actually tells us how to execute our mandate as an appraiser. They are negative documents meant as a basis to punish us for an opinion be the logic of that opinion appear flawed in the eyes of a regulator (reviewer or investigator.)

When someone receives an appraisal, do they even read all of it? I doubt it. I doubt 1 in 1,000 read any part of the certification; the definition of market value (and wouldn't make heads or tails of it if they did); do not understand adjustments even if you walked them hand in hand through it. In other words, the public does not care about your diligence, all they see is the number. They think it locked in stone. They are mad when it does not agree with their notion or needs. They are happy when it does. Then they stuff it back in that cute little folder the closing company gave them and ends up in the back of a file cabinet or pannier used to keep "special" documents.

Eli, you are a broken record on how this is all playing out for the good of the public and how the regulators...tomorrow...will diligently enforce all aspects of the law. And I am here to say that God help us all if it gets that intrusive because we will be subjected to the punitive whims of the INDIVIDUALS who enforce those laws and who INDIVIDUALLY interpret them. We could have 10 investigators and only one thinks you did it wrong, but it only takes one. And if the USPAP / AMC posse is set upon us, then they become "Regulators" right out of Billy the Kid. To the public it will look more like the Montana Vigilantes and Sheriff Henry Plummer (you might want to look that up to see who is the good guy and who was the bad and how neither were saints).
 
My preference is to allow the free market work. Right now we have no minimum or maximum that can be charged for our time and expertise. We can charge what we feel is appropriate for our own individual business…as it should be. No one is more aware of what I need to charge to keep my business running more than me. I determine my own worth; therefore, I set my own fees.

I am not concerned with the thousands or tens of thousands of appraisers that don’t understand their own worth. Or perhaps they do, which is why they accept fee’s that are detrimental to their business. How they price their service and run their business is not my concern and frankly, it is none of my business. They choose to accept the fees; no one is forcing them to accept the fee.

As has been noted numerous times on these forums, there is an overall oversupply of appraisers. Sure, there are markets that are undersupplied, but there are also plenty of markets that are oversupply as well. The oversupplied markets tend to have lower fees, while the undersupplied markets tend to have higher fees. The buyers (AMC’s) have an advantage over the sellers (appraisers) in oversupplied markets.

Setting a floor (minimum) will create less demand for appraisal services while also creating more supply. Demand will decrease due to the increased costs. If the floor is set at $600 for the appraiser portion of the fee, the AMC still needs to get their piece, so the final fee to the borrower will be $850 to $1,000.

The supply of appraisal services will increase because of the lessening demand due to the higher cost of appraisal services. Supply will also increase due to the increased price of appraisal services. Appraisers who have been inactive will begin appraising again, and new appraisers will begin to enter the profession because the floor makes the profession appear economically feasible. This combination of forces will create an additional surplus of appraisal services.

In the end, a price floor hurts appraisers (and society) more than it helps. It may help the appraisers that choose to accept “low” fees, but it only helps those appraisers by hurting everyone else, including other appraisers. Price floors cause deadweight loss.

“A deadweight welfare loss occurs whenever there is a difference between the price the marginal demander is willing to pay and the equilibrium price. The deadweight welfare loss is the loss of consumer and producer surplus. In other words, any time a regulation is put into place that moves the market away from equilibrium, beneficial transactions that would have occurred can no longer take place.” (http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com/micro_price-floor.php).

In the case of AMC’s, since the new floor is generally above the old ceiling; the new floor will also become the new ceiling. This is not mutually beneficial.

Instead of heaping more rules and regulations on appraisers, I encourage you to focus your time and energy on getting government out of the way. Help remove barriers such as AMC’s and burdensome regulations. Allow appraisers to succeed or fail on their own by letting them make their own choices when it comes to how much they charge for their services and how they run their business.
 
My preference is to allow the free market work. Right now we have no minimum or maximum that can be charged for our time and expertise. We can charge what we feel is appropriate for our own individual business…as it should be. No one is more aware of what I need to charge to keep my business running more than me. I determine my own worth; therefore, I set my own fees.

I am not concerned with the thousands or tens of thousands of appraisers that don’t understand their own worth. Or perhaps they do, which is why they accept fee’s that are detrimental to their business. How they price their service and run their business is not my concern and frankly, it is none of my business. They choose to accept the fees; no one is forcing them to accept the fee.

As has been noted numerous times on these forums, there is an overall oversupply of appraisers. Sure, there are markets that are undersupplied, but there are also plenty of markets that are oversupply as well. The oversupplied markets tend to have lower fees, while the undersupplied markets tend to have higher fees. The buyers (AMC’s) have an advantage over the sellers (appraisers) in oversupplied markets.

Setting a floor (minimum) will create less demand for appraisal services while also creating more supply. Demand will decrease due to the increased costs. If the floor is set at $600 for the appraiser portion of the fee, the AMC still needs to get their piece, so the final fee to the borrower will be $850 to $1,000.

The supply of appraisal services will increase because of the lessening demand due to the higher cost of appraisal services. Supply will also increase due to the increased price of appraisal services. Appraisers who have been inactive will begin appraising again, and new appraisers will begin to enter the profession because the floor makes the profession appear economically feasible. This combination of forces will create an additional surplus of appraisal services.

In the end, a price floor hurts appraisers (and society) more than it helps. It may help the appraisers that choose to accept “low” fees, but it only helps those appraisers by hurting everyone else, including other appraisers. Price floors cause deadweight loss.

“A deadweight welfare loss occurs whenever there is a difference between the price the marginal demander is willing to pay and the equilibrium price. The deadweight welfare loss is the loss of consumer and producer surplus. In other words, any time a regulation is put into place that moves the market away from equilibrium, beneficial transactions that would have occurred can no longer take place.” (http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com/micro_price-floor.php).

In the case of AMC’s, since the new floor is generally above the old ceiling; the new floor will also become the new ceiling. This is not mutually beneficial.

Instead of heaping more rules and regulations on appraisers, I encourage you to focus your time and energy on getting government out of the way. Help remove barriers such as AMC’s and burdensome regulations. Allow appraisers to succeed or fail on their own by letting them make their own choices when it comes to how much they charge for their services and how they run their business.

While I agree with you regarding "free market", several of your comments/observations appear to contradict one another within your post.

To me it's not so much an inconsistency on your part but rather an example of the complexities of the real world of appraisers and their fees (and probably the world of "free market" itself).

Appraisals aren't complex, appraisers are. :)
 
I've read through this thread, even several posts multiple times. Very interesting.

To be honest, I'm definitely one of the ones on the fence. I see Mike's point and think it's a good one. But I also see where Denis is coming from and like a lot of what he says.

This is definitely something I will need to "sleep" on and mull over.

I really am sick & tired of the AMC's having so much power over appraisers nationwide. Whether a min fee is the answer? IDK. It may be a start. There have been good suggestions throughout this thread. I do think a min fee would have to have regional limits due to cost of living type requirements. Someone living in Manhattan is a lot different than someone living in upstate NY (and fill in any other examples; I think you know what I mean)

I do agree, though, too, with one of Denis's posts regarding TAT and due dates. Another thing I'm really ticked off at AMC's about is how many (I would dare say a large majority, but that's personal speculation) require/want 48 hr TAT after inspections. That puts a lot of strain and stress on appraisers. But again, this is also a regional issue. A more urban/suburban appraiser probably has better info/verification sources, etc than say the typical rural appraiser.

Again, just my $0.02 and something that is interesting to me.
 
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