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When Customary Fees Become Unreasonable

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I agree in large part with your assesment of borrower knowledge of appraisals or interest in teh process...but the secondary market was also included in my post and THEY have the end point adverse fallout of poor appraisal selection .

Actually, a good number of consumers do care where their food comes from, what it contains and how it is made. Thus many are choosing or switching to orgnaic, the outcry against antibiotics used in animal feed (which many companies are cutting back on or eliminating), the movement for cage free eggs etc. Plus, consumers have FDA protection for food safety.

Anyway, an interesting topic and one as we see where many different viewpoints are present.
 
At no point does the borrower have any interaction with the AMC. At no point is the AMC paid directly by the borrower
False. There are many AMC's out there who charge the borrower directly. A personal friend of mine who works AT an AMC (he is NOT an appraiser) recently told me "...try getting the credit card information from some of these borrower's who live out of country!" (the conversation was regarding a borrower who is living in Central America right now and correspondence is via email)

I also used to work at an AMC YEARS ago before becoming an appraiser. YES, AMC's have interactions DIRECTLY with borrower's/homeowner's, etc. This still happens every day across the country. I'm not saying EVERY AMC, but I almost guarantee with MANY this is the case
 
Like it or not, that’s how it works. Most borrowers don’t care what the splits of their payment to the lender are. They just want to get the loan closed. Providing the lender with a payment for an appraisal is just one of the many hurdles they have to clear. To put it another way: Most borrowers don’t care how the sausage is made; they just want the final product.
I do agree with this (my bold)

Probably not. Most likely the lender and borrower don’t care how the appraiser is selected or how much they are paid as long as they get an appraisal that helps close the loan.
Again, I agree
 
False. There are many AMC's out there who charge the borrower directly. A personal friend of mine who works AT an AMC (he is NOT an appraiser) recently told me "...try getting the credit card information from some of these borrower's who live out of country!" (the conversation was regarding a borrower who is living in Central America right now and correspondence is via email)

I also used to work at an AMC YEARS ago before becoming an appraiser. YES, AMC's have interactions DIRECTLY with borrower's/homeowner's, etc. This still happens every day across the country. I'm not saying EVERY AMC, but I almost guarantee with MANY this is the case

My bad. I don't do any AMC work, so I'm less familiar with their interactions with borrowers. Thank you for giving me some new knowledge :beer:
 
While I agree with the assessments that most borrowers dont' care /just want the loan to close , THAT is very reason is why USPAP references the public trust. These buyers may not know what is good for them as far as appraisals, but the lender, regulagtors, secondary market and appraisers themselves are supposed to know and conduct themselves in such a way that protects the public trust.

The public trust is a general concept, but also includes individuals for each appraisal...the buyer, (who may be clueless or a jerk but still, their financial future can be impacted), an investor who will buy the loan, or the secondary market which insures the loan which means by extension the US taxpayer have a stake in the outcome.

With so much on the line and so much at stake, it is simply incredible that appraiser selection ,after all the regulations and losses from the housing market collapse, ends up being farmed out for profit and bid out flea market style, with selection often coming down to who will charge $20 less.

If it were fiction, nobody would believe it. An entire tome of regulations designed to prevent a repeat of the staggering losses from the housing market collapse , and appraisal ordering has become a flea market with the selection of an appraiser decided by telemarketers hired to call all day looking for low bids. Truly amazing.

Guess who is really choosing the appraiser and by extension charged with the public trust? A TELEMARKETER. A min wage person hired to call all day for the lowest bidder . When they find the low bidder, that phone person chooses the low bidder and awards the order. Who in their right mind could possibly think that leaving the selection up to telemarketers is a sound way to select appraisers ?
 
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From a practical matter, I think it is a tough sell (whether one thinks it is a good idea or not) to get regulators to raise fees that are ultimately paid by the consumer when every focus is ensuring that the consumers are not "over charged".

So tough a sell that I don't think it will ever happen.

It is a tough sell because the lenders can point to what is really occurring and say,
"In markets where there are not a lot of appraisers, we pay more. In markets where there are a lot of appraisers, we pay less. We put jobs out for bid and we get those jobs accepted. If you tell us you want to raise the rate for appraisal services above what we are paying now, fine... we'll do that. However, for those of us who pass on that cost directly to the consumer, they will be paying for it directly. And, for those of us who use our own in-house staff, we will have a competitive advantage because those rates are not subject to C&R. We still are going to use a centralized appraisal management process (AMC) and there is nothing in the law that prohibits them from being profitable; so, any increase in price for their services will be passed on to the consumer as well.
Go ahead, tell us we are required to pay a rate across the board that will affect more than half of the appraisals we order. You set the price for us. That way, when will bill the consumer, we can tell them this wasn't our decision, it was yours. We can work with a system like that... especially those of us who use staff appraisers rather than contract appraisers."

What regulator is going to say, "Well, we think it is more important for the small group of appraisers to be paid a higher rate than it is for the large group of consumers to not pay more than what they have up to now because there has been a sufficient number of appraisers willing to provide their services at a lower fee."

I don't think any regulator is going to go along with that. And, as a consumer, I'd be outraged.

So not on a political, not on a fundamental economic, not on a theoretical, but on a practical level, how realistic is it that the government is going to increase the fee paid by a consumer when there is no reason to do so other than appraisers demanding a higher fees?

The retort to the sentence above, naturally, is, "Well, C&R mandates it!"
Again, as Terrel and others have pointed out, there is no schedule for what is customary or reasonable that anyone can enforce. C&R is de facto what the market will bear.

I'd rather see the focus be on aggressive auditing of the lender process and aggressive auditing of the quality of the appraisal reports they are relying on. If quality is so bad because of low fees (a position I don't subscribe to) or due to quick turn-times (a position I do subscribe to), then those lenders who rely on low fees/quick turn-times should get the regulatory penalties (You want to see a bank's stock drop? Watch what happens when you see a regulatory investigation announced or disclosed in their 10K. You want to see a bank's stock go up? Watch what happens when the regulatory issue has been settled and the bank makes changes so it will sin no more).

If, after aggressive auditing and enforcement, it turns out that low fees and quick turn-times were the culprit, fees and turn-times will naturally go up to a level that is consistent to what that service is worth to meet the requirements. This isn't an artificial price level, this is a market price level.
If, after aggressive auditing and enforcement, it turns out that there is no significant difference in the fee or the turn-time, but quality has improved, then there is absolutely no reason for an artificial fee increase because it will be proven that higher fees are not necessary to ensure quality reports.

No regulator or regulation is going to increase consumer fees by $200 to $350 because appraisers think they should be paid more.
Current C&R has so many holes in it, there is no practical way to determine what that fee should be and what, if any, variance should be allowed.
An increase in fees is not going to change the turn-time dilemma; indeed, it will put more pressure on appraisers who to provide a quicker turn-time ("we're paying you more, what's your problem?"). And those who have constructed a system to produce quick turn-times without having to worry about quality levels will be rewarded for their pseudo "efficiency".

Mike, best of luck on your endeavor. No doubt you are putting your heart and soul into this.
To all others who think this is the answer, good luck as well. I don't think it is, and if I've learned anything over the last 10-years with appraisal changes, it is every new change seems to have created a bigger problem. What I have noticed is when things don't turn out like some were hoping they would, then that just increases the level of bitterness, resentment, and negativity. Some become depressed over it because (in my view) what they were hoping for was a significant overreach.
But I might be wrong and you might be right.


All valid points and observations Denis, however a lot of this was already addressed when Dodd Frank was first passed. There is no need for us to reinvent the wheel. The argument is not whether there should be a minimum amount an appraisal costs. The argument is that there is a minimum standard that appraisals must adhere to, and it has already been determined by Congress that in order to achieve that compensation must be BOTH customary and reasonable; or unacceptable practices become prevalent as demonstrated by the over half million Countrywide and WAMU appraisals that were reviewed with a finding that over 97% were deficient; and 97% were egregiously deficient. "Customary" was the focus of most pricing abuses since Dodd Frank was first adopted. Now it is time to focus on the "reasonable" part of fee requirements. Fees must be commensurate with the amount of work performed. Appraisers obligations have steadily increased since HVCC in 2009, yet compensation DECREASED. Many of the more qualified appraisers have been leaving transactional appraisal work in droves. Many have retired or sought other work. Others have held out in hope that conditions will improve. IN the meantime, we see ever increasing micro management by GSESs out of necessity because the low fee appraisers doing the bulk of their work don't know how, or choose not to do good work! I think well informed regulators and legislators will want to act to fix a serious problem affecting the very quality of collateral analyses being performed on all GSE loans in light of TARP II; TARP II, QE I; QE II and so forth. Liked or not, we ARE the only bulwark in the transaction charged with looking out for the taxpayers interests.

BTW-Read a blog in England from 2013. Banks there are doing the SAME thing! Ripping off over 50% of the "appraisal" (survey) fees! Consumers faced with five week delays in getting appraisals, and results are "not reassuring" to consumers.
 
While I agree with the assessments that most borrowers dont' care /just want the loan to close , THAT is very reason is why USPAP references the public trust. These buyers may not know what is good for them as far as appraisals, but the lender, regulagtors, secondary market and appraisers themselves are supposed to know and conduct themselves in such a way that protects the public trust.

The public trust is a general concept, but also includes individuals for each appraisal...the buyer, (who may be clueless or a jerk but still, their financial future can be impacted), an investor who will buy the loan, or the secondary market which insures the loan which means by extension the US taxpayer have a stake in the outcome.

With so much on the line and so much at stake, it is simply incredible that appraiser selection ,after all the regulations and losses from the housing market collapse, ends up being farmed out for profit and bid out flea market style, with selection often coming down to who will charge $20 less.

If it were fiction, nobody would believe it. An entire tome of regulations designed to prevent a repeat of the staggering losses from the housing market collapse , and appraisal ordering has become a flea market with the selection of an appraiser decided by telemarketers hired to call all day looking for low bids. Truly amazing.

Guess who is really choosing the appraiser and by extension charged with the public trust? A TELEMARKETER. A min wage person hired to call all day for the lowest bidder . When they find the low bidder, that phone person chooses the low bidder and awards the order. Who in their right mind could possibly think that leaving the selection up to telemarketers is a sound way to select appraisers ?

JGrant , right you are! But take heart. Now they are located in Uruguay rather than Bangalore India. At least they are in the same hemisphere and thus have far greater locational familiarity and competency!

Just an aside folks, Anyone know what the REQUIRED competency and skill level is of the FNMA REQUIRED person at the lender or AMC that provides 'human intervention' in determining IF 20 CU alternate potential comparables "would significantly affect the value conclusion?" By the FNMA license that MUST be done before you are asked to explain why you did not use 1; 2 or 20 of the CU "comps". Lenders have already said they WON'T pay for a desk review to determine that, so that too comes out of the AMC fees.

OK, back to the C&R proposal; can I get comments or emails of support or opposition with alternate suggestions? Please send to mike@mfford.com or janbellas@appraisersguild.org (if you send to the latter, you'll probably get an invitation to join AGA and an invoice in case you choose to do so. No arm twisting. We'd love to have you, but in the end its your choice). We can't follow up if we cant reach you. Thank you. Mike
 
My bad. I don't do any AMC work, so I'm less familiar with their interactions with borrowers. Thank you for giving me some new knowledge :beer:
After the initial loan interview, AMCs probably have the most contact with the property owner. Some lenders even tell them to handle the owner value complaints as if it were from themselves. Depends on the Service Level Agreement the AMC has with the lender.
 
If the violations of the law are as obvious, egregious and blatant as have been alleged throughout this thread and others, why aren't the authorities going after all these slam dunk cases?.

For the same reasons they did not go after them in
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
2014
2015?

Because they know which side of their bread is buttered, and the retirement plan that keeps on giving is the revolving door to the other side of the table, with, I might add, taking with them a nice government pension and benefits to boot.

.
 
Cheaper to whom?
Banks compete with each other and closing costs are lowered when the appraiser is paid less. Otherwise, the bank can take a toke off the fee themselves while pretending they have no control over the appraisal fee.
Market power exists due to an oligopsony, which is in violation of antitrust legislation
Cats think shoeboxes are coffins...so? More laws does not equate to more enforcement.
can I get comments or emails of support or opposition with alternate suggestions?
Mike - you've sure stirred some **** by starting this thread :)
 
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