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Windows Tablets For Fieldwork

Joe,

I guess we should start a different thread on that so we don't further "pollute" this thread..Now, getting back to hardware, perhaps we can get NCA to give us some user feedback on his Helix since he's had it for a bit.
Regards,
-Randall Garrett-
*Apex Software*

/end/

Randall, sorry that's my ADD pushing through.

I'm thinking that most appraisers would be using a Win8 tablet (w/keyboard) primarily for field data collection, sketching, photos, internet surfing of MLS and county sites and email (rather than editing a full length motion picture) then finishing up the report back at the office on a desktop with multiple 24" monitors.

So, what configuration (processor, ram, screen, etc) would be the most BFTB and would it be possible to get it down to the price of a good android...say $400 (ballpark) range. That way, if I tripped on the curb (I'm old, ya know) and smashed the thing to bits I wouldn't have to work another 6 months to replace it.

I'm not asking for a detailed report of every possibility currently on the market - just a general question.
 
Joe,

No problem on the "ADD" thing - I didn't see it that way. I just wanted to keep Apex software stuff away from being the primary focus here since we're discussing hardware. I don't mind using software in context, where appropriate, to illustrate... Anyway, back to your questions.

Yes, I think your vision of using a Win8 Tablet in the field has some legs and that more and more appraisers are starting to see the possibilities brought about by the newer, light weight devices now on the market. Some will prefer the higher end devices but the devices I've already covered represent pretty solid choices in the "thin, light & long battery life" categories. I think that the hardware available today is adequate, but that the available software is the weak link. None of the appraisal software companies have published versions of their software which have mobile optimizations - yet. And yes, this includes Apex. All of the software for thin & light devices out today is designed for "Pads", not Tablets. I believe, however, that these mobile optimizations are not far away. Further, even the Clover Trail devices I've covered are able to run these non-optimized programs today.

I believe that BB4TB will turn out to be those devices coming in the second half of this year, running on more mature (optimized) versions of appraisal software. Summarily, the thin & light Win8 Tablets are using the "Clover Trail" CPU, which has a limitation of 2 GB RAM and older graphics architecture. The more powerful Core i5 & i7 devices are a different beat altogether - they are powerful enough to run stuff just fine but lack the desired battery life and "Connected Standby", among other items. The next gen chips improve considerably on those items. The Clover Trail devices will move to "Bay Trail" which doubles the available RAM, goes to 64-bit and full graphics capabilities and allows for even thinner & lighter designs without negatively affecting battery life. The Core i5 & I7 devices move to the "Haswell" CPUS which add longer battery life and add Connected Standby, in addition to slightly thinner/lighter designs. Combined with more optimized appraisal software, the combination should be very attractive for mainstream appraisers.

There are a couple of $400 - $500 range Win8 Tablets out today, but I do not think they represent the BB4TB scenario.
  • The ASUS VivoTab Smart ME400C runs about $450 (http://tinyurl.com/ctvck2l).
  • The most popular one out now seems to be the Samsung ATIV but it is $539 (http://tinyurl.com/cdfsmu7) without the optional keyboard dock. It is on the high end of $500 as it also has the active pen you came to use ion your Motion Tablets. The ones in the lower range do not have an active pen - they are touch only.
  • My personal favorite is still the Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet 2 at $526.15 (http://tinyurl.com/cs3cpey) It is a business class device that also includes the pen and you can get an accidental damage warranty for around $80 the last time I checked. This device makes your Android Tablets and iPads feel positively "chunky." Very nice!

All that said, I still think YOU would be better off waiting for the Bay Trail versions since you already have an excellent Android Tablet now.

Hope this wasn't too detailed - couldn't help myself, LOL.


-Randall Garrett-
..Apex Software..

/end/
 
Update on the Helix:


I reported in my prior post that the Helix was a little slugglish and had delays when using my appraisal software. Turns out it was the form filling software that was the problem and not the Helix.



Will do a full review when I fully get use to the Helix. I have learned not to comment until the learning curve is over.....Like the saying goes, it is not the clubs, it is the golfer.
 
The 13.3" Asus Transformerbook and the 11.6" Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro 700T need to have a baby and let me adopt it.
 
Looks likely

I don't go much for rumor type stuff, but considering the two independent and credible sources (one "insider" with an excellent track record, the other an ex- "Softie" in my office today) I believe this to be true. It seems that Microsoft will announce an 8" Surface Tablet to likely be released around the shipping date for Windows 8.1 ("Blue".) Additionally, we've already had an ad show up which was quickly taken down, showing an 8" Win 8 Tablet from another mainstream manufacturer. I have not seen either device myself but there may be more info in 2 or 3 weeks. The base specs for one machine were revealed but the Surface should be a Bay Trail device. Will advise when I know more.


-Randall Garrett-
*Apex Software*

/end/
 
Sorry for being away for so long - I've been out and about, and am still officially "away", returning to the office tomorrow.

One of my trips was to Washington state - up in the "Seattle Area", specifically. I was there to discuss some business items which I believe will appeal to appraisers, should things work out. At present, that is all I can say on that topic - for now. More to the point of this thread, I was able to see some upcoming hardware. The major item which will (positively) affect appraisers is, of course, devices with the upcoming Haswell and Bay Trail chips. Unfortunately, there is an information embargo, so I can't really go into specifics - brands, models and geeky specs at this time. I can, however, confirm that most of what I seen in the leaks and (responsible) rumor mills is reasonably accurate. In fact, there are already a (very) few Haswell devices available today, though they are mostly of the specialty (gaming/enthusiast) variety and not ones I would recommend for appraisers.

The main issues I have with how some tech sites are reporting Haswell items is the way most users here may ready the claims for increased battery life and a general lack of explaining the benefits of Connected Standby. So, Haswell brings a theoretical 2x - 3x increase in efficiency-related items at the chyipset and closely-related subsystems, that does not translate to a massive increase in a users' typical run times. Remember, that for the most part, the biggest power draw comes from the LCD panel, not the chipset, the "computing", etc. So, while an otherwise very similar/same previous generation Core i5 or Core i6 device will gain some additional battery life by moving to Haswell, my gut (by observations and VERY limited exposure to sample devices) leads me to stand by my previous thoughts that we'll see a slight performance increase and a moderate increase to battery life under identical circumstances. For example, I believe we'll see a (say) 5 -6 hour battery life go to a 6 - 7 hour run time.

Perhaps the further reaching items are related to a larger increase in what we users see in "real world" scenarios. Most test sequences today involve a 50% - 60% screen brightness and a suite of apps that cycle through web browsing, videos, music and the like - things deemed "typical" for the mass markets. I believe that our typical work scenarios involve far less video and music (at least, they should while working, LOL) but our work environment often calls for brighter screen settings to combat the outdoor lighting conditions typical to inspections. The net effect seems to feel like about a 15% - 20% increase in battery life. The other major upside will revolve around finally getting access to Connected Standby, which is already present in the more mobile-oriented, lighter weight Clover Trail devices out today, as well as your typical phone, iPad and Android tablets (albeit going under a different name.) This item allows for a really useful condition that phone and "Pad" users already enjoy and rely on - maintaining service to web/mail/similar services when the device is in "sleep" mode - that state that some still think is "Off." Basically, it means that these desktop-replacement capable machines will be much more mobile friendy with regard to being able to rely on them as a single source for your mobile office needs. Other minor items that are changing cumulatively amount to maybe another 4% - 6%, depending on your usage scenarios.

The other think I observed is that noticeably thinner & lighter designs are truly possible and, in fact, in production now. This in itself is not due soley to Haswell, but rather a combination of manufacturing & production efficiencies becoming more mature. It just takes a generation (or two) to get the ingredients worked out. Wile I cannot be specific about upcoming devices, I can point you to newly existing/available devices which I was able to compare Haswell devices to. So, if you want to get an idea of what sort of things to look forward to, go check out a Toshiba KIRAbook. This 13.3" Ultrabook was recently released to the retail channel and features a stunning 2,560 x 1,440 IPS display and is incredibly thin and light. Note that for years, we North Americans hve not seen the Toshiba "pro" lines - mostly what we've had access to is their crappy, el cheapo devices. The KIRAbook is a pro business unit, and priced accordingly ($1,500 - $2,000.) I know, I know - NOT a tablet/convertible, and more money than you want to spend - I get it ;-) Still, go by a retailer and fondle one to get a feel for the difference in previously available 13.3" laptops and this sleek beauty, It'll give you a pretty good idea where things are heading with respect to size, weight and build quality. Most of us geeks love the device, but bemoan why it was so late to the party - they may as well should have just waited for a Haswell release (month or two?)

That said, I strongly urge that if you are in the market for a new dvice, that you wait for Haswell designs if you want the best bang for the buck. They really do appear to be not that far off and the wait is worth it IMHO. This goes for Tablets/Convertibles and laptops, less so for desktops. Additionally, most indicators point to similar or lower prices than what we're seeing today, and you should know what that means for pricing on devices out now - they can only go down... Hence, I believe the "sweet spot" for bargain hunters and "gotta have the best" types is just around the corner. If you're dead in the water, sure - go get what you need after doing your research, but if you CAN wait, my recommendation is to do so.

OK, so I saw another device (under info embargo) but lo and behold, I see that a tech site (moderate on accuracy and high on bias/rumor/etc.) has published a short article with pictures on the the ToshibaPortege Z10t. Again, this device is using a current-gen Core i5/i7 and there will be a Haswell "refresh" in a couple of months. What makes this unit worthy of discussing in this thread is that it is a business class device (which I prefer) and has a (sadly rather unique) matte (vs. glossy) screen. Other "innards" are similar to other confertibles out today except for the "spill resistant" keyboard, included vPro, TPM, etc. not found on consumer class devices. If you are familiar with the $1,200 Samsung ATIV 700T (not, coincidentally, just reduced by $200+), it is similar to that, but just done much, much better. I have not seen a final, shipping version, but from what I saw, I believe it will be something that those whom the Lenovo Helix appeals to, should consider. It'll be interesting to see what the actual "street" price is - what sort of discounts will be applied to the (reported) $1,499 MSRP (varies per component choices.) For that matter, what happens to the Helix pricing? :-)

Here is a link to an article on the Z10t. You can find others, some more geeky than others. I chose this one because I know that you like pictures more than "the articles." ;-) http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/29/toshiba-portege-z10t-detachable-ultrabook/#continued


I'll follow up later on Bay Trail items. That chipset (and devices) look to be hitting a couple of months after Haswell units start rolling out. Every bit in really usecul/specific info I have on the actual devices is not only under NDA, but really too far out to rely on anyway, given how the landscape is changing. IF you have a need for a thin/light device, just be aware that I saw some "Clover Trail+" stuff, and while that is a slightly better solution than the regular Clover Trail devices, I would wait for Bay Trail - it is simply that much better. Seems that most of the interest in CT+ is from the ruggedized/Enterprise market, so you may not even see these in stores anyway...


Hope this helps!



-Randall Garrett-
..Apex Software..

/end/
 
Thank you for your insights on emerging tablet technology. Though your thoughts on the topic are interesting, I was hoping to see something on the progress of Apex v6. I've already acquired a tablet (MS Surface Pro), and I am ready to part with some cash to have live sketching. Back in February or so, you alluded that you might have something on v6 out soon. Can you provide any updates? I respect that you may not be able to do so for competitive reasons, but I had to ask. Thanks.
 
brbkr,

Thanks for your kind words, and sorry for the multiple typos in my previous post. I was on a mobile device and anxious to hit [Post] before I lost my 4G connection, but I really should have proofed it before sending - my fault. I think I owe it to the readers to improve my writing, and that last post was pretty atrocious...

As for Av6, I apologize for the sudden silence. I don't want to pollute this thread with "my next great product" info and give it a "sales pitch" feel. Still, I recognize that in order to make the best use of your time and hardware purchases, a certain amount of relevant software items should be discussed.

I've been asked, however, by my marketing and business development folks to curtail my public Av6 discussions. Their requests are reasonable to some extent due to some ongoing discussions they are involved with. What I can say, though, is that it has progressed nicely and I am well pleased. There are some items that I'll want to tweak, but for the most part, if we get the word to hit the afterburners, we could be ready to deliver in (say) a month or so, including final field trials for regular and custom builds. Following the current path, we are on schedule to deliver builds for testing integration type items to our integration partners in mid-June. I believe that integration is an important "feature" that users have come to expect/rely on.

I'll discuss this with folks at the office first, but perhaps I should start an Apex v6 thread, so we can discuss/debate Av6 related items... Personally, I'd love to start getting feedback from real world users as I believe the best products come from engaged users vs. out of a sterile lab run by programmers who've never done real appraisal work. FWIW, I'll repeat that I like the program a lot and I can hardly wait to release it.


Regards,


-Randall Garrett-
*Apex Software*

/end/
 
Thank you for that update. I would be glad to participate in discussions on Av6 and offer any thoughts I have. I have looked at your video for Android Mobile Sketch and am impressed. I especially like the method for creating and defining areas. Can't wait to get started. I am currently using MS OneNote to digitally ink my floor plan. Though this method leaves much to be desired, I will probably continue using OneNote for quickly scrawling notes even after I am up and running with Av6. The handwriting recognition on my MS Surface Pro is very good, but sometimes not quick enough for a fast-talking homeowner. I would welcome some form of inking for note-taking in your product as well.
-Brian
 
Just a quick note/reminder on upcoming Win 8 tablets. In the past couple of weeks, a few new ones with the much anticipated Haswell chips were announced and publicly shown by some of the major manufacturers (ASUS, Acer, etc., etc.) at Computex. Only a very few are actually shipping in limited quantities ATM with production expected to be ramping up. Today in London, Samsung took the wraps off their entries into the market and we now know what they have in store from them this fall.

Anyway, I urge the readers here to take things with a grain of salt and lets wait to see actual shipping products. Also, as great as these Haswell devices are, I believe that MOST of you will be really pleased by the lighter, less expensive Bay Trail devices, which have yet to be unveiled in any meaningful way.

I was unable to be in London for the Samsung event (have my nose buried in software ATM) but we do have an Apex office there, so I am looking forward to getting some feedback from our folks there. They are not only software folks, but actual licensed appraisers (known as "Qualified surveyor/valuers, depending on the region) and thus I value their opinions on actual use scenario feedback. I already have a good feel for that hardware specs, etc. and what they means to our industry, but how they feel, how they actually work is a big factor in my book.

Things are (finally) getting really interesting... :-) I'll give some germane feedback as soon as I can.



-Randall Garrett-
..Apex Software..

/end/
 
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