Windows Tablets For Fieldwork

[Randall Garrett]

Hi Mike,

I think the right device is which ever one works best for YOU. To help narrow the field down to a manageable size, some questions are in order.
Are you a residential appraiser doing mainly "forms" type work? What software do you feel is necessary for you to have in the field? I see your location is Ohio (?) - do you have much need for working I inclement weather or would it be just occasionally? Do you need 4G on the tablet or would it be sufficient to "tether" to your phone for occasional use? Do you want/need a digital pen? Of course, the "budget" question comes up, and understanding that nobody wants to pay any more than they need to, do you have a general idea of price range in which you are comfortable? is it a valid assumption on my part that since this is a Windows 8 thread, you'd prefer a full Windows Tablet (for "double duty")? Is the device mainly to be a replacement for another machine (laptop or desktop), or are you looking for a "companion" device?

Feel free to PM me if you feel that the foregoing questions are too private.


Regards,


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/

 

[Randall Garrett]

HP ELitePad 1000 vs. Pro 610

Just a couple of pictures from a few days ago, courtesy of a post I made on a different site. The readers there were asking various questions on two business class Win 8 Tablet PCs made by HP - the ElitePad 1000 and the Pro 610 ("EP1000" and "P610".) Some items were specific to a particular industry, but the bottom line is that some users were still asking a basic question often asked here - Is the more expensive model worth the extra money over the "lesser" version/model?

In most of the "spec on paper" aspects, the two Tablets are almost identical. Other than appearance, the most obvious differences are the color and the price. Some notice that the less expensive model weighs slightly more and attribute it to the casing materials. The difference in weight is really more about the size of the battery - the more expensive one has a lower capacity battery, so it weighs less. The less expensive one just doesn't have the "binned" components which allow it to run more efficiently - the more expensive one, even with a smaller battery actually runs longer. The other item that most potential buyer miss in this comparison is the availability of cases, docks, etc. made by HP for the EP1000. For some *like most readers here), the availability of these accessories can be a huge factor in which device works best in your environment. The P610 is pretty basic with respect to power connection(s), cases, etc. You can get additional chargers for the P610 from HP and presumably from a few 3rd party manufacturers, but there are very few other accessories. The EP1000 on the other hand, has a wide range of docks, cases, etc.

Anyway, one of the questions involved what, if any, differences were there in the screens, the digitizers, etc. While documenting a few items for these particular users (a teacher, a CAD user and a mobile field inspector), I shot some quick photos of the EP1000 and the P610, side-by-side in partial shade and direct glaring sun. Hence, I thought they might be of interest here.

The partial shade shot represents an almost worst-case scenario when inspecting the exterior of a house. The shot was made on a VERY bright day, under minimal eaves and angled outward toward the open areas. Normally, you'd have it oriented upward with reflected light coming very indirectly, not tilted outward in an attempt to try and make things look bad and be hard to use ;-)

The full sun shot was taken moments after and the angle is such that I was probably only a degree or two away from seeing a mirror-like reflection of the sun. You can see the slight aberration/"rainbowing" common across both tablets. Again, I stress that this was to illustrate a worst-case-scenario, not typical... (Note, due to my own carelessness, I had the positions of these two Tablet reversed with respect to the earlier shot. The only modification I made to this image is to "mirror" it Left > Right. It makes the devices look funny to me, but I felt that comparing the two images would be easier if they both matched.)

These shots were made with my Lumia 1020 Cell Phone and then reduced - and further compromised by the upload process imposed by this site. Hence, they are not spectacularly good "photos", just merely "snaps" for a quick look. Additionally, the fact that I am not using any filtering results in the fact that in person, both of these devices actually look noticeably better in these situations to the naked eye than they do in these photographs.

[Edit] I can see after uploading the images that the "Full Sun" image almost completely loses the "definition" in my original images, so the comment about it being better in direct sun probably isn't adequately represented IMHO.

The point I was making in the other thread is that while the "specs" on the two LCD and digitizer panels are written to be identical, their actual performance is different in these situations. Of the several Tablets like these that I personally own (and more deployed), the P610 is consistently a little brighter than the more expensive EP1000. Indoors and even while traversing a house in "normal" (for this location) outdoor lighting conditions, it is hard to tell the difference, especially when you can manually alter screen brightness or simply use the "Auto-Brightness" setting. It is (mostly) only when pushed to extremes that you can see the difference, and then only when actually side-by-side. Even I kept forgetting which one was brighter until I put them side-by-side... Anyway, note that even though the P610 is brighter across the board, the EP1000 is slightly more legible in these extreme conditions. I do not have a definitive answer as for WHY, I simply observe that it is so I find that the EP1000 is the better screen and it is likely due to additional/better treatment to the screen (unverified.) That said, I'll soon see how 3rd Party screen treatments fare on these devices (I plan to do that on Sunday.)

Summing up, I believe that for some of you, the EP1000 represents the better, albeit more expensive, choice. Not just for the slight additional clarity as you might suspect, but really it is the cases, etc. which make the biggest difference. The retail price difference is $599 vs. $739, or $140 for essentially identical models. Checking the link below, you can see that these are the first model on the left and the last model on the right - both are 4GB RAM/64GB Storage models.

http://shopping1.hp.com/is-bin/INTE...se?CatalogCategoryID=Kk8Q7EN50TQAAAFDHeo0Qpdo

The P610 "tops out" at 64GB Storage where the EP1000 goes to 128GB if you get the model with 4G. I was able to get both these models for about 7% - 10% less with little effort via various on-line retailers (I vary my sources not just for price, but to also check delivery and service related factors.) I think my last P610 cost me $568 and I overpaid by a very slight amount. I can't remember the EP1000 pricing - have gone through too many in testing, deployment, etc., but it was less than the retail price on the HP site by a similar percentage. For many of you, 64GB really IS enough storage space (unless you are using it for movies, etc., which I couldn't care less about) - these tablets both feature microSD card slots for adding more storage space. The build quality is great on both - certainly more rugged than the typical "consumer grade" device, though the EP1000 has a more "premium" bill of materials. I personally find the P610 to be more comfortable to hold, but both are thin and light for a full Win8 Tablet PC. Both feature touch and the Atmel pen/digitizer combo and they work well - in some respects, better than the more mature Wacom combination (YMMV on that.)

Hope this helps!


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/

 

[Headip]

Does apex do this? My brother and I were talking about it today. When using a tablet with a pen or a surface pro 3 for example. Could you draw freehand like you would with a clipboard and pen and paper. Then when you write the number next to the line it will snap the line to the correct size?

 

[Randall Garrett]

Hi Headip,

Yes, Apex has a product like that, but before I go into specifics, check out this link and see if this is what you are talking about. While looking at the indo and video, keep in mind that the product shown came out in 2006. We have a much newer product which has improvements over the product shown/described there.

http://www.apexwin.com/us/index.php/software/appraiser-products/apex-nexus-v3-standard

IF this is something like what you are looking for, I can give you some more info - unless someone specifically asks about one of my software programs I just try to stay away from "Apex product" stuff in these forums so folks won't think I am trying to sell stuff here ;-)

I am responding from my SP3, BTW and I use the product on it daily. While discussing the SP3, I must say, however, that for MOST residential appraisers, I do not think that it is the BEST choice for a mobile device. It is a fine piece, mind you, but it may not be the device which BEST fits your needs. Discussing which Tablet best fits YOUR needs is what we try to discuss here, so if you let me know more about how you envision using a Tablet in the field, I am happy to make recommendations, provide info and my reasoning(s), etc.

It may take me a day or two to get back with you - I am out of the country at present and my Internet connection is slow & spotty.

Hope this helps!


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/

 

[Rob Bodkin]

Stylus

Randall,

The above post brings up a question I'd love your take on. One of the factors that is hard to know without using the devices is, Wacom like stylus or no stylus?

You have used the Fujitsu, the new HP's and a bunch without a stylus. Without the worry of you being perceived as a salesman for Apex, though that's not a worry I have, it would be great to get your take on the utility of the stylus over just the on screen keyboard in your sketch program. One imagine that would be the same impression in the total sketcher. Do you find it an advantage?

I've tried a few (what's the plural for stylus?) on my iPad 3 and the stylus on my Galaxy note 3, with ok, not great, results. I am tempted to think that just becoming more proficient with the keyboard will produce a more reliable, readable result in say, Onenote or the like.

And with most "apps" built for the iPad or Android tablet not geared for a stylus, I wonder if it should be a significant factor.

Thanks,

Rob

 

[Randall Garrett]

Hi Rob,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I am away ATM and my Internet connection is spotty/slow. I will be back home by Sunday evening and will be able to reply in more detail then if the following isn't sufficient.

While I have used many different combos, I prefer having the option of Keyboard & mouse/track pad, Touch and Active Pen input when using my mobile devices. Some activities are just easier when you have an input method more tailored to them... Fortunately, many of today's Win 8.1+ devices offer both Touch and Active Pen, as well as convenient Keyboard/Dock options, so its not a problem for me. You'll note that most of the devices I rate closer to the top have all three input options. You'll also note that the devices I favor tend to be "business class" (vs. "consumer grade") devices and with a very few exceptions, they have Active Pen.

Sometimes folks use the term "stylus" to refer to Active Pen, but the former is much more limited. A stylus on a capacitive touch device is essentially mimicking your finger, just with a sharper "point" and having the familiar "pencil" format. For some applications, it offers additional ergonomic convenience/familiarity, but almost uniformly it does not offer adequate (my definition) "inking." In most cases, an Active Pen can operate like a "dumb" stylus if all you want to do is peck at small boxes, etc., but you're missing out on what a system with a proper Active Pen system (Wacom, N-Trig, Atmel) can offer. Of course, the software you are using has to be "aware" of the pen and be written to provide support for same. Proper Active Pen support is a basic "OS-level" item in the devices we are discussing in this thread, and these devices work well with OneNote and certain Apex products. Apex v5 and earlier was written to be a desktop application and so it is not a suitable mobile product IMHO. We have other products which were designed for Active Pen from the outset. The next release of Apex (v6) builds on that legacy product (circa 2005/2005) but also supports mouse/keyboard and Touch. That product is out in use overseas and has been sent to our various applicable Integration Partners for testing the data exchange API stuff. We anticipate releasing it publicly pretty soon.

Comparing your use of a Stylus on an iPad (using OneNote?) doesn't really give you a good indication of how proper inking with an Active Pen system in (say) OneNote in Windows 8.1+. Its kind of like comparing writing a letter or drawing a sketch using a Crayon vs. using a mechanical pencil, but with the added benefit of the excellent "handwriting recognition engine" in Windows. A properly written application can leverage that asset to make certain tasks easier/more efficient - some feel "more natural." I can't speak with authority on how the other products work, but Apex v6 uses the Pen very effectively - most of our long-time users of our "Nexus" product rely on these capabilities in the field and would not accept using Touch, or even Mouse & Keyboard only. These users are valuation professionals who do serious volume and who simply must be as efficient as possible. That said, most appraisers here in the US are more familiar with Touch systems due to the plethora of Touch Tablets being offered at every "big box" store and on-line retailer.

Hope this helps for now. Hopefully, our Robert Smoote is close to finishing up some tutorial videos which will effectively demonstrate the advantages of using an Active Pen device in Apex v6. The "suite" of videos are also supposed to show Touch type input and there are some "segments" which show Mouse & Keyboard so that folks can see for themselves how all three can be used "at will" and as appropriate for the situation, your preferences, etc.


Regards,


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

via MS SP3 from "parts unknown" ;-)

/end/

 

[Rob Bodkin]

Form factor

Randall thanks for the reply on the active pen. I had also seen Lisa's run through on the different pens/manufacturer options. It looks to me that if one were to jump now that the EP 1000 or the Q584 would be tops. Have you had the opportunity to bury the new TPT10 in the sand or leave it on your rain barrel?

At the risk of looking like i missed it earlier, is your opinion that the SP3 or perhaps the Q704 are not ideal primarily due to their size and awkward one hand use?

I have the good fortune of living near a number of MS stores and a few retailers who carry and service the Fujitsu brand so I can get some hands on time this weekend.

 

[Randall Garrett]

Hi Rob,

If you like the 10.1" form factor, both the EP1000 and Q584 are nice units, with the main differences being aligned with your "environmental" factors and a few personal preferences. The EP1000 has more accessories which are readily available (Fuji stuff is still hard to get quickly and they are notoriously slow here in North America) where the Q584 is more weather resistant. One of my EP1000 units bit the dust after I tried to see if it would match up underwater with the Q584 in a more extreme test. That was MY fault as the EP1000 is not rated for 3' and 30 minutes... an expensive lesson for me ;-) The screen basically fritzed out - the unit still runs when connected to the docking station and an external monitor, so I'll use it for some software testing, but lets just say that it is now a pretty expensive "net top slice computer." ;-) I sent it to HP to get a repair estimate but it turned out that I can buy a new unit for less, so that's the end of THAT story... I should have put the unit in the Rugged Cover before submersing it that deep for so long. :-\

With that experience fresh in my mind, I've not had the courage to dunk my TP10, and I won't until I get an IPX rating from Lenovo. Even then, I doubt I'll do it without the $59 Lenovo Rugged Cover accessory (my actual, purchased unit has not shown up yet) and being assured what level of added protection it brings.

All that said, I have every confidence that any of these will survive the "rain gutter" test just fine, which realistically is about 100 times more "humidity" than any of us would willingly inspect properties in So, even a moderate rain should be no problem with any of these three, even "naked." Of course, the Q584 needs no accessory for water/dirt - the only reason one might get a "bump case" is for drops onto a hard surface - grass, flowerbeds, even packed dirt, etc. are not an issue.

The Q584 and TP10 both use a Wacom digitizer pen/screen layer where the HP uses an Atmel combo. For note taking, they are essentially competitive with just minor real world differences. For "art", it is a different story. There are plusses and minuses to each, but nothing worth discussing here ATM. Just try each and see if any of the items Lisa illustrated is really a factor.

The SP3 is another animal altogether; larger, heavier and more powerful - all factors stemming from the larger screen and more powerful (and power hungry) Core i5 CPU, etc. The SP3 screen is not as bright as the other 3 but MS has done some good work with regard to the reflectivity, so in most shady areas, the SP3 is adequate (and improved with a good anti-glare screen protector.) I still owe folks here my screen shots, or at least write up of my tests with two different screen protectors. I have another set on order and want to include those now...

The main issue I have with the SP3 is that for most of the folks I know (or that we support), it is just a little large, and without an effective "bump case", it can be unwieldy during inspections. Note that the SP line is intended as an inside device. No question about it, though - the SP3, being a "full PC", makes a more complete "all-in-one, desktop replacement class" machine, so if that is what you need, then that is the better choice for you. I have personally found (and observed via feedback) that the 10.1" form factor is near the upper limit for size/weight ergonomic type things for MOST folks who do inspections. In theory, a future "SP4" with an 11", 3:2 aspect ratio and using fan-less Broadwell would be near perfect. (See "Llama Mountain" stuff for an idea on what fan-less Broadwell brings with respect to size, weight, battery, etc.) I am a big fan of the 3:2 aspect ratio. 16:10 is MUCH better than 16:9 when you are talking tablet sizes, but 3:2 (15:10) is even better, per my previous comments on software factors.

The Q704 is a fine machine, but again, I find (and others report) that the form factor is just a little unwieldy - even more so than the SP3 per 16:9 aspect ratio, weight (2.16 lb. vs. 1.76 for SP2), etc., BUT the Q704 does have good IPX specs, and so if that is an issue, it would be a better choice IMHO. Fujitsu also has a history of having decent accessories available for mobility workers, even if getting stuff takes a little longer. If it is what you need, and that spells the difference between something actually working for you, then the wait and extra money are secondary factors IMHO.

All in all, given that MOST of us already have decent (enough) desktop/laptop systems at home/office which we rely on for the bulk of our "heavy lifting", we find that MOST people do better with a competent "companion device" vs. mobile desktop replacement machine. You'll save some money up front and only part of that savings will go toward other important items like case/strap, accidental drop policy, 4G module (?), etc. - things that will likely actually help you be more productive in the field. The big reason why most folks go with a WIn 8.1+ companion device is due to their need/desire to run "legacy" full software programs when mobile, vs. specialty "apps" like on iOS and Android. The "companion device" aspect should not be confused with trying to have a full power machine in the field - it is usually not needed. The current crop of Bay Trail Atoms (and more so, the Pentium/Celerons) with 4 GB of RAM (or more) offer adequate performance for most software programs you are likely to run in the field. Not as fast or fluid as on a monster desktop, of course, but good enough. This is a step up from last years Bay Trails with 2 GB of RAM, not to mention the Clover Trail units.

None of the 10.1" (or larger) devices are really "one handed" devices. Those are the 8" devices, but unless your software is tailored for that screen size, you may find many programs difficult to use. Its not so much the resolution, its the size (and our aging eyes, LOL) and the lack of optimization for mobile use.

Anyway, unless you need a Core i5 (or better) system in the field, we find that your money is better spend today on the "companion" devices. These things change (essentially) annually, and by next Spring, we'll be seeing Broadwell and Cherry Trail releases which are even better with respect to performance (speed and battery) so the smart money gets what works well enough for now, puts it to use and IF/when a newer machine comes out which will demonstrably pay you back in increased productivity, get it then. Trying to "future proof" things too far in the future is simply an exercise in futility ;-) We find plenty of folks who simply use the "trickle down" thing to give their "old" machine to a helper, family member, etc. The key here is that the "new sweetness" has to actually pay for the upgrade in increased productivity vs. just be a new toy

I think it is great that you can do some 'hands on" - you are very fortunate to have the ability to fondle stuff for yourself! How it feels and works is such a huge part of a success story. I sincerely hope you will share your experiences (good and bad) with the rest of the readers here. We all benefit when folks share and I look forward to your feedback!

-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/

 

[cshamilton85]

Hello Randal
I could really use some help from you. I work for an assessor's office in Louisiana. We use apex for our field work to sketch the exterior of homes. We currently use an ipad but would like to make the switch to one of the smart tablets like the Surface Pro 3 or whatever. Which tablet would you recommend we go to. Price is not really an issue as long as the tablet is an improvement over the ipad. Please let me know what you would recommend. Thank you in advance.

Stewart

 

[Randall Garrett]

Hi Stewart,

I am happy to help. I assume you have seen the pictures of the 3 or 4 tablets I posted in the last 30 - 45 days (?) Those were for a county that routinely works in a wet and sandy environment, so beyond looking for "business rugged" (not mil-spec), they had "wet weather" concerns. IF you really need the water protection and don't want to use a "Rugged Case/Cover", then the Q584 is the most affordable unit with decent specs. My guess is, however, that the HP or Lenovo is sufficient. I thought they were for that county I showed the others to, but I think they were giddy about getting a budget increase and so they were going to "go for it." Overall, I like the HP for the sensible ruggedness and accessories. The Lenovo ThinkPad 10 is just beginning to ship models with the 4GB of RAM. The next hold-up would be whether you need 4G on board. HP is shipping theirs in limited quantities, but Lenovo doesn't even show but one model on their web site (2 GB, at that) with a "configure your own - coming soon" label next to it. The 4GB models with 4G broadband are shipping in other markets we serve, and it is working well - we just need to wait (reportedly 2 - 3 weeks) before the full line-up is available here in the US.

Another factor to consider is your CAMA system - that can affect which build of Apex you use. If you know what system you are using, let me know. Since you are too new here to us the PM function, just let me know what County you are in and I can look you up and give you a call. Alternately, you can call Jonathan here and get him to come find me (the front desk never really knows when I am here, but if I am, Jonathan can find me, even if I'm not at my desk - which is most of the time, LOL.) Let's talk about your needs/desires and then I can help you narrow things down.

Regards,

-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/