Solar Value

[Elliott]

Mikeyvee said, Except all of your numbers are WRONG!

Mike,
Frankly, I'd rather have the $29,329, as would most people. Why would I spend that much just to get an income stream only of about $100 per month AND for a wasting asset? Poor use of money and resources. You could buy a NY Munibond, tax free, and you get your principal back for the same return. I know you think your saving the planet, but your taking $15,000 of resources away from the rest of tax payers, or in other words, they are paying for it, so they don't get to use the money for useful things like sending their children to college or buying a new, safer car.

From the perspective of the "next" buyer of the house, they don't get the tax kick backs and has been pointed out, if your getting a check from the utility its taxable. So the buyer is going to look at the panels on your roof and the wiring and ask, "so how long does this thing work, how much is it going to cost to remove" and "so I save a net $60 per month after tax, big deal." "Its not worth more than a few thousand to maybe five thousand max, but it looks like just another maintenance problem."

 

[Randolph Kinney]

What a mess... this will be an on-going battle between solar companies, utilities and Main St America... we'll see who wins this battle.
For sure it won't be Main St America. Anyone remember the rolling brown outs in CA and Enron??
We are definitely sizing up for a real battle.

The nonprofit company, which manages bowling alleys and seven recreation centers in the politically powerful Phoenix-area retirement community, has a large solar-panel project going up at its facilities. In the Lakeview Recreation Center parking lot on a recent summer day, workers on lifts finish connections beneath the panels, which double as shade for covered parking. Solar arrays at two of the company's centers already are finished and producing power.

"The anticipated savings is about $15 million," Higgins says from the lobby of RSCS' corporate office at Lakeview. She adds that the electricity generated from the photovoltaic panels could power an estimated 347 homes.

Her dollar figure is averaged over more than 30 years, according to numbers the company posted on its website. The savings come partly from $185,000 per year in direct incentives from Arizona Public Service Company, to be funded over the next 20 years by APS customers. Most of the savings come in the form of a power bill that's been slashed by more than half. But this bonanza doesn't happen as simply as you might think.

The scheme is called net metering:

But what's bad for a utility company has a way of becoming bad for its customers.

Such as last year's rate increase by APS, brought on by the success of energy-efficiency programs. Less electricity was sold because of the programs, leaving APS' parent company, Pinnacle West Capital Corporation, with less revenue to pay bills. Because APS is allowed by the Arizona Corporation Commission to make a predetermined profit to promote stability for such a vital service, the company is allowed to boost its rates to make up losses.

Nice article, it explains the scheme of "we cheat the other guy and pass the savings onto you." Eventually you get cheated because the utility needs more revenue to cover cost and raises your rates.

 

[Mikeyvee17]

just face the facts.

The OP got screwed, the solar is costing him money every month and he now needs someone to blame for that.

In walks the appraiser.

It costs the same to build one solar panel to the next, given the same K rating. But, put it in the desert, and it's super efficient at hitting that K number much more often, year round, then if you put it in the north with snow and shade much more rain, and clouds. Nobody lowers the cost of the panels if you're putting the panels up north.

So where can better absorb the cost of the panels? It aint New York, or PA or Maine, or New Hampshire or Vermont, or Illinois or Michigan or Montana when compared to California, Arizona, Texas and Florida. But the AI can't say that. It'll be against the official government meme.

There is also a reason they don't build outdoor in ground pools in Alaska too.

The DCF does not work, as there is no reasonable expectation that net metering will be mandated/provided/allowed in the future.

Unless of course someone can show me legislation that insures net metering is available for at least the next 15 years, to cover the loans for these things. Otherwise, like the 1970's this is a fad, a distraction, and a money grab, no different than the 1970's.

..

You are ignoring the facts.

Read my reply with the correct numbers - stop being ignorant!

Mikeyvee said, Except all of your numbers are WRONG!

Mike,
Frankly, I'd rather have the $29,329, as would most people. Why would I spend that much just to get an income stream only of about $100 per month AND for a wasting asset? Poor use of money and resources. You could buy a NY Munibond, tax free, and you get your principal back for the same return. I know you think your saving the planet, but your taking $15,000 of resources away from the rest of tax payers, or in other words, they are paying for it, so they don't get to use the money for useful things like sending their children to college or buying a new, safer car.

From the perspective of the "next" buyer of the house, they don't get the tax kick backs and has been pointed out, if your getting a check from the utility its taxable. So the buyer is going to look at the panels on your roof and the wiring and ask, "so how long does this thing work, how much is it going to cost to remove" and "so I save a net $60 per month after tax, big deal." "Its not worth more than a few thousand to maybe five thousand max, but it looks like just another maintenance problem."

Again, I value your input - but that money is tied up for solar incentive, not kids to go to college...

I think you need to look long term, after the 15 year loan period.

 

[Meandering]

As New Times related in a December 27, 2012, feature about the weaknesses of solar power ("Solar Eclipsed"), the forecast is bleak for anything other than fossil fuels to power most of even sun-drenched Phoenix and the rest of Arizona for at least the next 20 years. Solar companies probably won't offer any real alternative to power utilities for decades to come.

And solar won't save the Earth from climate change anytime soon. India and China are building CO2-belching coal plants that erase in just days carbon dioxide emissions saved by U.S. solar installations over an entire year.

Lemmings.

The banks and the government love you.

.

 

[nicholz12]

Mikeyvee said, Except all of your numbers are WRONG!

Mike,
Frankly, I'd rather have the $29,329, as would most people. Why would I spend that much just to get an income stream only of about $100 per month AND for a wasting asset? Poor use of money and resources. You could buy a NY Munibond, tax free, and you get your principal back for the same return. I know you think your saving the planet, but your taking $15,000 of resources away from the rest of tax payers, or in other words, they are paying for it, so they don't get to use the money for useful things like sending their children to college or buying a new, safer car.

From the perspective of the "next" buyer of the house, they don't get the tax kick backs and has been pointed out, if your getting a check from the utility its taxable. So the buyer is going to look at the panels on your roof and the wiring and ask, "so how long does this thing work, how much is it going to cost to remove" and "so I save a net $60 per month after tax, big deal." "Its not worth more than a few thousand to maybe five thousand max, but it looks like just another maintenance problem."

All of the above so true, and as was mentioned previously, who is to say you're going to stay put/ in the same house for 15 years, most people don't.

 

[Mikeyvee17]

The nonprofit company, which manages bowling alleys and seven recreation centers in the politically powerful Phoenix-area retirement community, has a large solar-panel project going up at its facilities. In the Lakeview Recreation Center parking lot on a recent summer day, workers on lifts finish connections beneath the panels, which double as shade for covered parking. Solar arrays at two of the company's centers already are finished and producing power.

"The anticipated savings is about $15 million," Higgins says from the lobby of RSCS' corporate office at Lakeview. She adds that the electricity generated from the photovoltaic panels could power an estimated 347 homes.

Her dollar figure is averaged over more than 30 years, according to numbers the company posted on its website. The savings come partly from $185,000 per year in direct incentives from Arizona Public Service Company, to be funded over the next 20 years by APS customers. Most of the savings come in the form of a power bill that's been slashed by more than half. But this bonanza doesn't happen as simply as you might think.

The scheme is called net metering:

But what's bad for a utility company has a way of becoming bad for its customers.

Such as last year's rate increase by APS, brought on by the success of energy-efficiency programs. Less electricity was sold because of the programs, leaving APS' parent company, Pinnacle West Capital Corporation, with less revenue to pay bills. Because APS is allowed by the Arizona Corporation Commission to make a predetermined profit to promote stability for such a vital service, the company is allowed to boost its rates to make up losses.

Nice article, it explains the scheme of "we cheat the other guy and pass the savings onto you." Eventually you get cheated because the utility needs more revenue to cover cost and raises your rates.

The big picture here is that the utility companies want to keep bringing in record profits. Stop the greed and this is a non-issue

 

[George Hatch]

The big picture here is that the utility companies want to keep bringing in record profits. Stop the greed and this is a non-issue

Somehow I just knew you'd eventually get around to validating the observation I made in the first post about the extent to which partisan politics are interwoven into the topic.

 

[Meandering]

You are ignoring the facts.

Read my reply with the correct numbers - stop being ignorant!

Again, I value your input - but that money is tied up for solar incentive, not kids to go to college...

I think you need to look long term, after the 15 year loan period.

I did read your "correct" numbers. And I did read your "wrong" numbers yesterday.

And it still does not change that you are paying the bank $109 monthly to save $75-$100 from the electric company, a negative investment of $9 to $34 a month as a direct transfer of payments.

Plus you have to pay additional income taxes on that $75-$100 a month you are not sending the electric company.

Oh but you could clarify this other question for me..

Have you notified your homeowner's insurance company that you now have solar panels on the house?

How much was the increase in your homeowner's insurance?

Because yesterday you said the panels cost $60k and today the cost is a much different, lower number, and heck,

We are supposed to estimate replacement costs that the banks use for insurance purposes, so perhaps you could fill us in on what the premium for insurance was.

Thanks Mikey.

.

 

[Elliott]

Silly solar thinking on a small scale is even worst when up scaled. Crescent Dunes outside Tonopah, NV, has a billion cost, picked up by taxpayers---through a non-recourse loan. Its been under construction for 4 years. They turned it on a few times and it vaporizes local birds and its in the path of migratory birds. If you've ever seen one of these 'farms' from an airliner its a shinny thing, maybe the great nirvana lake birds have always talked about. So a billion dollars and no electricity. They say they will turn it on, but whatever stream of electricity will be very, very, very expensive.

 

[Meandering]

They will have to produce a lot of noise around it to change the birds flight paths.

That's what is needed a giant boom box in the desert pounding out rap music during all daylight hours.

Snoop Dog and you, making the planet greener.


.