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FAIR Fee Apprasiers Involved in Regulation

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As a young appraiser and one in the early stages of my career, I am obviously concerned with the directions our industry is heading. I would love an opportunity to be part of an organization such as FAIR. I have already learned a great deal from reading posts in this forum and would like an opportunity to learn more from the seasoned veterans who post here. I hope that twenty years from now, I can develop into a leader for my generation of appraisers as you ladies and gentleman are now. I just hope that I HAVE a generation of appraisers twenty years from now!!!
 
Austin:

You indicated "who would want to be associated with these Organizations anyway". I would assume it would be the same individuals who currently sit on these Boards and are members in one of these Appraisal Organization, since these Organizations are not concerned with the quality of their members rulings.

leon
 
The F.A.I.R user group is officially open to the public. To get there you simply get out of this thread. Right above the "Discussion Group" heading, when you first enter into the threads, you will see the headings "FQA, Questions, Users Groups." Click on "Users Groups" You will see "ACI - Appraisers Choice Software". Use the scroll next to it and scroll down to FAIR. Come in, send me a message you want to be a member and I will let you in. This process is all done by e-mail on the system. It may take a couple of hours to a couple of minutes during the working day and most Saturdays to let you in so give it a little time.

As the group grows we will add a membership only section. This is where voting and ultimate decisions are made. If you have problems getting in, e-mail me, give me your phone number and I will walk you through it. David had to hold my hand so do not be embarrassed, I needed help also. Those who are waiting to get in which, there are several, you should be receiving your confirmation as members of in just a couple of minutes.

If you have not seen a user group, they are pretty neat. Just check it out to see what you think if you wish. You do not have to post anything. And I will not be able to post until the morning myself.

Steve Vertin
 
David,

Your quote:

"For example, one reason I can't get too upset with Brad Ellis and his noncommittal attitude toward STD-3 and his "pats on the back" of the OBRE (IL's appraisal board) is because he reminds me of me -- or rather, how I very likely might think and behave if I did not know better. "

Well, DO YOU KNOW BETTER? Have you read Sam Blackburn's letter to the ASC in which this highly respected past president of AARO outlined his reasons for not supporting the STD-3 requirement? Have you talked to anyone who is involved with the concept- apart from the appraisers in this string? Again, I am not saying that I agree with Sam- only that there are "reasons" why the state boards oppose it- as I first said in my first post.

You are supporting Steve Vertin's position. From what he posted, it appears to me that he did not exercise due diligence in allowing the contract appraiser to select all the comps for 41 assignments without so much as checking the market himself. I am not castigating Steve- he seems a knowledgeable guy. But, if he erred, then he erred. The court will determine if the IL board acted correctly or not.

I do not know the NCAB guys, but I DO know the IL guys- pretty much all of them. And I have NO problem in telling you that they have been fair and reasonable in the past.

Is it possible that there is something here we do not know? Steve got hit with the largest available fine in IL. They only thing worse they could have done is to suspend his license or revoke it. I'll wait to see if the court finds for him. If they do, this will be the only IL case in which anyone has found fault with the IL board for being too aggressive. So, sorry, I cannot equate the IL board with NCAB without a great deal of additional information. In fact, all I know about the NCAB is what is posted in this forum- and frankly, that is not adequate enough for me.

Steve has posted that all these changes are the subject of a new law. Bill Sentner said the same. But my sources tell me that these are administrative rules that do not need legislative action. I have asked for clarification of this and am waiting for responses from my sources.

Given your spirited, detailed and commendable defense of Tom, I might have assumed that you are one of those folks who would get all the info before chiming in. Am I wrong about that?

Brad Ellis, IFA,RAA
 
Bradellis: Look at this issue from a different perspective. For example, I can cite numerous examples of people in high authority that would make a mockery of our entire system of justice for political expediency. We could lower the crime rate in this country drastically if we did away with some of those cumbersome rules of evidence and due process procedures, but we don’t allow it because it has been and can be abused so we accept the system with all of its flaws. If you want examples: I once heard the Black Caucus of the US House of Representatives questioning the head of the FBI concerning administrative law procedure. The subject was “charges” of racism in government agencies. The Black Caucus wanted action now! The FBI director explained that these administrative procedures could take up to five years. The Black Caucus replied that due to the seriousness of the charges, they wanted to fine and fire the accused now, and the administrative law judges could hold the trial later. I am sure in their minds there was a justifiable reason for this action. Another example was a US Senator accused of sexual harassment. It was reported that there was no evidence that the Senator did anything wrong, to which a noted PBS reporter, Nina Tottenburg, replied: “It doesn’t matter if there is no evidence, it is the seriousness of the charge that matters.” Again, in her mind this was fully justified. The problem is that in both instances, both parties are total idiots with absolutely no understanding of or regard for justice and due process. There is no justification under our system of justice and government to do away with due process period. I don’t care what the reason is, it is wrong in principle. I think that is where David is coming from on his post.
Second: As to the charges against Steve Vertin: Steve hired a respected and experienced appraiser that had done similar work for two former presidents of the AI. She had a simple job of reporting the total number of transactions and gathering comparable sale data from a community of 1,200 people. For some unknown reason, she messed up. In my opinion, given the reputation and experience level of this person, not to mention the practicalities of the situation, for Steve or anybody to check and verify everything some one like this does is ridiculous. If we have to be held to that degree of detail, why bother hiring an assistant anyway? By the time we do that we could do it ourselves. If that is the way the rules are going to be interpreted and applied, then I will not hire or rely on anybody. There is no balance in this case in my mind because under these circumstances any reasonable person would have done what Steve did. That is why I contend that some one was waiting in the shadows to get Steve. It is like the story of the man that found a diamond ring in the bottom of his next-door neighbor’s septic tank. The question is, what was he doing stirring around in the bottom of his neighbor’s septic tank? Not the kind of thing normal neighbors do around here unless they have some devious motive.
 
This has been a very interesting thread and it is most interesting to hear from everyone for a different prospective. I'm learning a lot. We are lucky in Florida (I believe from first hand attendance!) to have a good Appraisal Board, but all of us can always use help. It is refreshing to see everyone pulling together. :D
 
Brad:

I appreciate your comments but F.A.I.R is not about Tom or my case. The bigger issue is Standard 3 and continuity of enforcement and USPAP across State lines. We have heard most arguments why some States are not doing what they are suppose to do and we do not buy them. Your comment that they "have their reasons" is weak and does not stand up to scrutiny of logic. Because it is really a non-comment. It is a trust me statement. Kind of like what your accusing us of doing. But see, people know what is right and what is wrong in their heart and they hear the truth.

Brad, I do not understand why you have a non-committed attitude to inequality within regulations. It is simple, one side has to abide by the rules the other side is trying to make it so they do not. Built-in creditability has a shelf life. It does not last forever unless justice is executed. The State of Illinois is severely damaging their creditability by trying to exclude themselves from standards.

Steve Vertin
 
Brad Ellis

If Illinois is like most states, the adminsitrative rules are submitted to the legislature for approval. t is essentially a veto power, but they typically let the boardes do what they want unless the actual group of individuals being overseen by the board squawk about the rules.

I have not read Sam Blackburns position on this other than what he sent to the NCAB. If you have his letter tothe ASC, could you post it for all of us? How in your estimation does his reasons stack up with those I submitted to you?

Regards

Tom Hildebrandt GAA
 
Austin:

There was an elderly Appraiser (About 90 years old) in my community who got his license suspended for the same thing about 2 months before he died. Almost all of the appraisal shops who hire trainee's could easily get caught for the same thing. They just haven't been caught yet.

As you indicated, it dosen't make any sense to hire trainee's because by the time you inspect the property and review the appraisal report with the trainee, you could have done the report yourself and saved the "fee split".

It seem as if the Appraisal Business has turned into some type of "helter skelter process" where the objective is to get the Appraiser, and there has to be some type of "Check and Balance" System for those who set the rules and those who are given the responsibility to inforce the same rules.

Also, there should definitely be a restriction on the number of individuals from the same organization serving in a policy making or governing position on these councils and boards. There should be a limit of "one", and I would like to see that limit of one applied to the whole (chain) process.

What kind of a system have we created where members of one organization can makeup the majority on a specific board, and the other members are from another organization that they they have a close working relationship with, furthermore, when the paperwork is transferred to another level (appeal) the hearing group's makup is repeated. What this setup really allows is the corruption of the entire process.

leon
 
Tom and Steve,

First, I will repeat: I have not supported state boards' decisions to exempt investigators from STD-3. It continues to amaze me that anyone will jump to such a conclusion, particularly when I have been so adamant about my fence sitting. Sorry if that bugs you, but it is still my decision- and all the facts that I need are not yet in my possession.

To be specific, I am still waiting callbacks from 2 state investigators, one state board member, and one state appraisal director for their views.

The simple fact is that I do not agree with all of Sam Blackburn's statements. I am not sure if I agree with any of them. I merely cited the letter in support of my statement that these folks have their "reasons"- not that I agree with them. Sam has long been a proponent of fair treatment for appraisers AND holding them to appropriately high standards. We may not agree with him, but we certainly should not dismiss his views in a cavalier fashion.

His letter is at my office- I'll try to post some of his more salient positions.

Second, I am well aware of the fact that your cases are not directly related to this situation; however, both cases keep coming up in posts by others- so I responded.

To have someone tell me and others that I do not know any better is quite inappropriate. I know as much as anyone in this chat room; I simply have not made up my mind. I will in the near future. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, depending upon your point of view and my ultimate opinion, it will not change a thing in any of our lives.

I will continue to support appraisers as I always have- the good ethical ones, that is. The bad guys- whether they be unethical members of our profession or bad board members or bad administrators-ruin it for the rest of us.

And, I continue to wish you both good luck in your battles.

Brad Ellis, IFA,RAA
 
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