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When Customary Fees Become Unreasonable

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Did you think the majority of appraisers doing lender work woke up one day and decided to accept lower fees than they ever made historically? Appraisers across the nation woke up one day post HVCC and decided to accept dramatically lower fees? Do you really think that is what happened?

Yep, that pretty much what happened. Many appraisers made a conscious choice to accept the lower fees instead of countering the fee or rejecting the assignment. I'd be willing to bet that most of the appraisers accepting these fee originally were trained to fill out a form, not appraise. And most likely, they had no idea how to run a business. As the dramatic oversupply of appraisers has dwindled, the survivors, who are probably more business savvy than the form filler, are starting to push back on fees.

Like it or not, the market worked. We had an oversupply of appraisers and the primary buyer of appraisal services recognized the oversupply. They found enough appraisers to fulfill their demand for services at lower than typical fees. As appraisers have left the profession and the oversupply begins to normalize, we are beginning to see a return to more appropriate fees.

I understand that some disagree; that's cool. No harm, no foul. But in the end, this is basic econ 101 stuff.
 
They don't just have NO DEMAND for you that is not forced. They don't like you. Get over it and quit being brainwashed. I have to put a disclaimer that there are a few exceptions.

Eli: I agree that there would be much less demand for appraisal services if the government was to quit mandating the use of said services. I'm ok with that. Either way, a demand was created and appraisers created an oversupply of services, because the money was fast and easy and real estate appraisal was a fairly easy field to enter pre-2008. A lot of people that got in for the fast and easy money have since exited the field. The business minded survivors and starting to push back.

One thing to keep in mind: It's government regulation that started the oversupply of appraisers and it's government regulation that started the downswing in fees. Do you really trust that the government can fix the problem with more regulation, or would you rather just let the market work it out?
 
Why did the clients suddenly offer lower fees post HVCC ( which according to your simplistic theory happened for no reason , it just happened because appraisers would accept it? Really? When fees paid by borrowers went up, clients pushed for lower payout to appraisers for THE FIRST TIME on a national scale in decades , for no reason at all? And appraisers accepted it, and it was appraiser acceptance of lower fees that led to lower fees? (by your lack of logic )

Historically, prior to HVCC, clients had NO REASON to push for lower fees, because whatever the borrower paid for appraisal went to the appraiser. ( referencing res lender work, which is what this thread concerns)

AFTER the HVCC , when third parties had to take part of the appraisal fee to pay overhead and profit , since their business model was not to charge lenders but to run off the appraiser fee, THAT is when entities had reason to lower fees to appraisers. Appraisers did not roll over and willingly line up to accept..it was an ugly two years which saw many an appraiser go broke trying to resist and some left the business, others gave up in exhaustion and took the low fees to survive in appraising.

Anyone who thinks this was just due to supply and demand or appraisers willingly en mass accepting low fees does not grasp that the driving factor behind lower fees which is the profit retention by third parties ( or profit flowing back to lender when they run their ordering division for benefit from fee splits)
 
Yep, that pretty much what happened. Many appraisers made a conscious choice to accept the lower fees instead of countering the fee or rejecting the assignment. I'd be willing to bet that most of the appraisers accepting these fee originally were trained to fill out a form, not appraise. And most likely, they had no idea how to run a business. As the dramatic oversupply of appraisers has dwindled, the survivors, who are probably more business savvy than the form filler, are starting to push back on fees.

Like it or not, the market worked. We had an oversupply of appraisers and the primary buyer of appraisal services recognized the oversupply. They found enough appraisers to fulfill their demand for services at lower than typical fees. As appraisers have left the profession and the oversupply begins to normalize, we are beginning to see a return to more appropriate fees.

I understand that some disagree; that's cool. No harm, no foul. But in the end, this is basic econ 101 stuff.


Why is it so hard for people to understand the above?
 
The LAW says we are to be compensated at a "customary & reasonable" rate.

Yes it does, but the law doesn't specify what C & R is. Why is that? The writers of DF don't give two poops about appraisers. They wanted to create a massive new bureaucratic agency that had no oversight to regulate the banks and that's exactly what happened. They left thousands of pages of regulation to be written at a later date, including what C & R is. Why did they do that? Because, even the writers of DF knew they couldn't possibly determine what a C & R fee is for all the different real estate markets, all the different types of appraisals, all the different types of businesses that provide appraisal services...etc.

One self serving side has zeroed in on the customary part and tried to manipulate that to the point that the second part is completely ignored.

When you go to a car dealership, do you pay full sticker price or do you price shop and try to get the best deal possible? AMC's are basically doing the same thing. The difference between most car dealers and appraisers's is that the car dealer knows how much they need to charge for their product to be profitable; most appraisers have no idea what they are worth. While I am not a fan of AMC's, I understand they are trying to run a business and would like to make as much profit as possible. If there are appraisers out there willing to accept "low fees", then that is the C & R fee to that appraiser, otherwise they would reject/counter the AMC's offer.

Here's the thing about C & R; it's different for everyone. If someone can thrive in a "low fee" environment, then good for them. They are free to accept those "low fees" just as other appraisers are free to reject those same "low fees". As long as enough appraisers are accepting "low fees" to meet demand, then those are C & R fees for that market. Appraisers set C & R, based on the fees they are willing to accept. Any business would be foolish to pay more for a product or service than market rates.

Now it is necessary to take actions that move the pendulum of balance back toward the middle; or even the other side, if greater services are now required than when C&R was postulated and adopted into law...

As appraisers leave the profession, supply of appraisal services is beginning to tighten a bit in some markets. The more business savvy appraisers are beginning to challenge the AMC's and ask for higher fees and longer turn times. The pendulum is beginning to swing. However, a price floor (minimum fee) is not the answer. The price floor will become the price ceiling. $600 for that cookie cutter in a subdivision will be equivalent to $600 for a super complex high-end home in the mountains. The AMC's and regulators won't see a difference, because appraisals are all the same to them. They don't understand what goes into developing an appraisal. They will say, "The law says I have to pay you $600, so take it or leave it." Those same appraisers accepting "low fees" today, will be the one accepting that assignment. The appraisers that felt that $600 was below C & R, will be upset...just like we have today.

If the door to a price floor is opened just for GSE appraisal services, how long before it creeps into other area's of appraisal services? I certainly don't want a government bureaucrat determining how much my time is worth. That has not worked out well for doctors in regards to Medicare and Medicaid with many doctors no long accepting those patients because the government regulated reimbursement rates are often below the doctors cost.

When price goes up, so does supply, but demand goes down. By setting a price floor for appraisals, we would be causing the supply of appraisal services to increase and demand of appraisal services to decrease (this hurts appraisers). We would also be causing prices to consumers to increase (that hurts consumers). A price floor will do more harm than good.

If you truly want to help appraisers, then focus your time and energy on getting government out of the way. I understand that we must have some regulation to maintain order in an economy, but we currently have too much regulation. We certainly don't need a federal minimum fee mandate. Let the states handle appraisal regulation; they are better equipped to regulate on a more local level. And instead of having the government force people to pay us more, focus that time and energy on educating appraisers. Many have no idea that they can ask for a fee and TAT increase and will get it in many instances.

"When price goes up, so does supply, but demand goes down. By setting a price floor for appraisals, we would be causing the supply of appraisal services to increase and demand of appraisal services to decrease (this hurts appraisers). We would also be causing prices to consumers to increase (that hurts consumers). A price floor will do more harm than good."

Eli, please THINK about what you just posted and how it applies to appraisers. Your conclusion is based on rhetoric that simply does not apply. What makes you think that my minimum price proposal is NOT an effort to get government out of our way? If there were some way to revert to pre HVCC appraisal regulations, I would do so. NONE of the rules passed since then were necessary. None. But since they WERE passed, now we have to learn how to survive WITH the ones we cant change, and to modify the ones we can. THAT is ALL I am attempting. It has NOTHING to do with college classroom economics lessons. Nothing. That ship sailed long ago.

Btw- as a result of all posting here, I got a relayed call telling me Washington already HAS minimum fees of $400! HOW is MY proposing that they be $585- to $685 for non FHA going to result in lower fees? I respect philosophically opposed views. I really do, but lets not pretend standard economics models have ANYTHING to do with what we are facing this or next year. In five more years if 25,000 more of us retire or quit, then the standard economic model will prevail again. Until that time, I want to earn a better, less stressful living and see friends and associates do the same. Best wishes for you and yours, as well. Seriously.
 
Btw- as a result of all posting here, I got a relayed call telling me Washington already HAS minimum fees of $400!

Is that the State of Washington?
Do you have a link? I don't doubt what you heard but couldn't find any information on a minimum fee of $400.

Thanks!
 
Why is it so hard for people to understand the above?

Please let me know how that works out under TRID.

Michigan, seriously in a smaller geographic area like Michigan it (C&R) MAY still be holding true to economic basics. I understand it is in Alaska and Texas as well. Alaska charging $750 for a non complex SFR; and Texans (reportedly) charging around $450 for what some there also claim should be $500-IF someone had the courage to take the lead and raise prices. THOSE are market based economics.

The problem is that the very simple model you cite is NOT working out across much of the rest of the country. IF it were, then North Carolina would not have obtained a consent agreement from Coester VMS to start paying the STATES specified C&R fees. ALL I am saying, is that where no clear cut C&R fee sources can be pointed to, that a national minimum standard based on federal pay for appraisers be used as the metric for "reasonable".
 
Is that the State of Washington?
Do you have a link? I don't doubt what you heard but couldn't find any information on a minimum fee of $400.

Thanks!

Im waiting on the email with the man's name and contact information. Im told he's an Arizona appraiser; reportedly his two sons that used to work for him moved up there. Call it unsubstantiated rumor for the time being. Same call also cited some exceptionally low fees being paid by Quicken Loans. I will NOT repeat them here without further proof. Surprisingly there ARE some that feed me misinformation in hopes I'll hang my hat on it. Thank you for pointing this one out.
 
Don't laugh.
Can anyone here tell me how to reply to specific responses sent to me by email linked back to this site? I wanted to thank a very kind lady, veteran-poster here and cant find the thread to do so.
Format here is significantly different than what I am used to.
Thank you.
 
Im waiting on the email with the man's name and contact information. Im told he's an Arizona appraiser; reportedly his two sons that used to work for him moved up there. Call it unsubstantiated rumor for the time being. Same call also cited some exceptionally low fees being paid by Quicken Loans. I will NOT repeat them here without further proof. Surprisingly there ARE some that feed me misinformation in hopes I'll hang my hat on it. Thank you for pointing this one out.

I can appreciate the risk of being set-up (alla Donald Trump! :LOL:). I'm not trying to play "gotcha". If that is the case (Washington has set a minimum) that would be huge news. My specific interest would be to see how they set the rates. You've laid out your rationale in your first post; I was wondering how they came up with a figure if they've set a minimum.
 
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