Where Do You Think "geographic Competency" Begins And Ends?

[timd354]

So when you said that you think that the bachelors degree requirement should have stayed, it was for your own economic benefit? lol

I have already stated that I don't agree with George's opinion on the matter. I personally think that a college degree requirement would eventually lead to a generally higher level of competence in the profession and I also don't hide the fact that my personal view would further my own economic interests should decide to return to the field at some point in the future. Additionally, although I do my best to analyze things from a completely rational, unemotional and unbiased point of view, I would not be honest if I completely denied the possibility that my level of educational attainment may bias my view on the matter

 

[chad hampton]

I would hope my degree in civil engineering would put me above my competitors. But in the world of banking and AMC's, where greed is the only thing that matters, I doubt it does. Producing the cheapest product they can get get their hands on is all that matters. And by the time that appraiser gets in trouble for producing garbage, they'll just move onto the next cheapest in line. That's the model we all have to work under right now.

 

[George Hatch]

I agree with first part of the post. The second starts off well and then becomes muddled. forget public perception, which can be different than actual harm to public over a long period of time from policies they are not aware of.

The problem is when business interests of those in charge of ordering, be it fee or turn time, or other, when those interests make doing competent work impossible or very difficult, it is part of the discussion.

To pretend this is not a huge issue in GSE work is absurd, nearly every appraiser who has worked for an AMC or order dept with low fees, fast turn times and or having service scorecards driving selection has posted about it adversely affecting their work, or driving them out of doing tat segment of work. IT is not that appraisers are whiners, it is that this is a huge problem. Of course the alternative is to stop working for these companies and many do, but where does that leave borrowers and lenders who rely on these assignments, and what is the point of keeping on driving good appraisers out, or making those left work at warp speed to make up for a low fee ( which does not get passed on to borrower) .

To pretend that assignment conditions does not affect ability to be competent, is not possible. If aka geo competence is the issue, or more accurately, developing competence to do an appraisal in an unfamiliar area is the issue, then it makes a difference if the turn time is 24-48 hours vs 4-5 days . The fee might also enter into it, such as how much time an appraiser can devote to research And of course if it is desktop or visiting the area. Whether we like it or not, assignment conditions do intersect with competence. .

Here's the thing in that - and it is sufficiently obvious that I shouldn't even have to articulate it - a specific application is the culminating expression of the underlying principals and concepts. So if we are going to talk about a specific application - the so-called hybrids that have inflamed you - we have to start first with what is possible before we can add in other complicating factors that will cut into that to result in what will be practical or typical.

The discussion of the specifics in the micro logically comes after consideration of the concepts in the macro, not in lieu of them. The micro is the refinement of the macro, not independent of it.

 

[timd354]

Back in those days, you were probably asked if you could "make value" Or do a "comp check". If you were still fee appraising now, the question would be "how fast/how low a fee" ( with exceptions of the ethical clients )

The problem then, as now, is ethical clients have to compete with the less ethical ones, as appraisers do. Which should not be on the table for tax payer GSE work- but it still is.
More training and education leads to better judgement and skills, overall, of professionals and appraisers are no exception

I don't see how requesting a turn time and/or a fee quote is in any way unethical or in any way comparable to being asked if you could make value or for a comp check.

Trying to completely divorce the reality of the business side from the professional side of the appraisal profession (or any profession for that matter) is a fools errand as it is completely unrealistic.

Next time you need some home improvements done, I sure hope that you don't lack ethics and have the audacity to ask potential contractors how much the job is going to cost and when they can get it done.

 

[Joe Flacco]

Denis cracked my top-10 favorite posters the first week he was here. But I have seen *many* competent appraisers over the years with little/no college. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I've run into exceedingly few people who had what it took to get through the gauntlet but who were too ill educated to learn how to appraise. I saw a lot of them who were poorly trained and supervised, but (IMO) that's a QE provider and supervisor problem, not a trainee problem. Which I think are much more proximate causes of incompetency than whether or not someone ever took an Intro to psychology or music appreciation or comparative religions course.

One reason my experience in the subject is more broad than your's is I've spent 3x as long in this business and engaged it on a broader scale than you have. In fact, if you came into this business in 2007 whatever idiot let you in contributed to the oversupply that you are still struggling against. That greedy POS supervisor is the one who stabbed JGrant and a lot of other participants in this thread in the back - not me. If they hadn't been greedy and short sighted you and all the puppies who came in the same time you came in wouldn't even be here.

My mentor trained one appraiser in his whole career and that is me. He was a good mentor. You can leave him out of this.

You overlook the fact that the overall competence level is too low. Does not matter if you have seen "many" without college. Supervision or experience is not what develops analysis skills. A person with a college degree is more likely to have analysis skills. We are talking about odds of success increasing. It is not what is the minimum education level necessary.

Again, you always dodge my questions. Why is a college degree needed for CG license?

 

[J Grant]

I don't see how requesting a turn time and/or a fee quote is in any way unethical or in any way comparable being asked if you could make value or for a comp check.

Trying to completely divorce the reality of the business side from the professional side of the appraisal profession (or any profession for that matter) is a fools errand as it is completely unrealistic.

Next time you need some home improvements done, I sure hope that you don't lack ethics and have the audacity to ask potential contractors how much the job is going to cost and when they can get it done.

I dont' insist they do it in a crazy fast time frame when they tell me how long they need, And I don't choose a contractor by cheapest or cheaper one, have learned from experience not to that, as have many others. In GSE work, the borrower has paid a good fee and does not get to choose the appraiser, and are unaware their trusted lender dumping their order on an AMC who is choosing which appraiser is cheaper (which may not always be better).

What I do not understand is why you keep defending this system. Surely you are aware that cost plus would eliminate the problem?

Back to the start of your question, it is unethical when it leads to selection of less experienced/ qualified when better appraisers are available AND covered under what borrower paid, for no reason other than lining an AMC pocket. The fallout is a cheaper fee appraiser flooded with volume has to shortcut time and quality on each report to get them out. You fail to see a n issue with that. There is also the unfortunate problem that selection by number hitters still can occur, albeit a lot more discreetly than the old days when at least they were upfront about it.

 

[George Hatch]

I have already stated that I don't agree with George's opinion on the matter. I personally think that a college degree requirement would eventually lead to a generally higher level of competence in the profession and I also don't hide the fact that my personal view would further my own economic interests should decide to return to the field at some point in the future. Additionally, although I do best to analyze things from a completely rational, unemotional and unbiased point of view, I would not be honest if I completely denied the possibility that my level of educational attainment may bias my view on the matter

You've never said otherwise (you think it will raise the level of professionalism), and indeed a large percentage of appraisers present exactly that argument in exactly those terms and exactly for those reasons. i would go so far as to say that relatively few people agree with my perspective. i understand that I represent the minority report in this forum.

With that said, I also recognize you've never dragged fee or market conditions into a discussion of the underlying issue, and I greatly appreciate that.

 

[George Hatch]

My mentor trained one appraiser in his whole career and that is me. He was a good mentor. You can leave him out of this.

You overlook the fact that the overall competence level is too low. Does not matter if you have seen "many" without college.

Nevertheless, had your supervisor refrained from adding to the population that population wouldn't be as big as it is right now. I had the same opportunities your supervisor did and I sure as hell knew better than to do what he did. By which I am referring only to adding to the population. That's not a criticism of you on the personal level, except that if you were more self-aware you'd understand that the addition of your capacity to the pool has had a negative effect on the supply/demand dynamic, just as my staying in the business instead of quitting has had the equivalent effect.

FTR, I was on this forum during that time frame and you should have seen all the arm waving I was doing trying to warn you guys of the hazards of breeding yourselves into oblivion. Ask anyone who was here - I have never wavered on the topic. We used to scorch trainees who came in and criticized our reluctance to take on new blood - and every one of them told us we needed them because we were all dying.

 

[timd354]

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Of course it is related, who is left in a proressin to do the work, n dl


I dont' insist they do it in a crazy fast time frame when they tell me how long they need, And I don't choose a contractor by cheapest or cheaper one, have learned from experience not to that, as have many others. In GSE work, the borrower has paid a good fee and does not get to choose the appraiser, and are unaware their trusted lender dumping their order on an AMC who is choosing which appraiser is cheaper (which may not always be better).

What I do not understand is why you keep defending this system. Surely you are aware that cost plus would eliminate the problem? t

I have no problem if cost plus is adopted or even mandated, but cost plus won't change a thing regarding what appraisers get paid as it won't change the competition between AMC's for lender business and won't change the competition between lenders for borrowers and much of that competition is based on lower costs/fees. If you think that lenders are just going let AMC's pass through any ols appraisal fee to them (plus the AMC fee) just because it is "cost plus", then your expectations are simply not realistic (IMHO).

 

[Joe Flacco]

Nevertheless, had your supervisor refrained from adding to the population that population wouldn't be as big as it is right now. I had the same opportunities your supervisor did and I sure as hell knew better than to do what he did. By which I am referring only to adding to the population. That's not a criticism of you on the personal level, except that if you were more self-aware you'd understand that the addition of your capacity to the pool has had a negative effect on the supply/demand dynamic, just as my staying in the business instead of quitting has had the equivalent effect.

FTR, I was on this forum during that time frame and you should have seen all the arm waving I was doing trying to warn you guys of the hazards of breeding yourselves into oblivion. Ask anyone who was here - I have never wavered on the topic. We used to scorch trainees who came in and criticized our reluctance to take on new blood - and every one of them told us we needed them because we were all dying.

I didn't train anybody. So why are you pointing fingers at me?

So again, can you tell me why a bachelors degree is needed for CG license but not a CR license?