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Windows Tablets For Fieldwork

I noted today that MS is offering a trade-in program for up to $650 credit toward a Surface Pro 4. It primarily focuses on folks with S Surface Pro 2, Surface 3 or Surface Pro 3, though I see links for iPads and Apple Laptops, too. I checked the program offer by entering a Surface 3 and comparing it to a competitive offer (Gazelle) but the latter did not even show a S3 as viable for trade-in. So, I went back and used both an SP2 & an SP3 and found that both of the MS offers exceeded the Gazelle offers. The MS offer is, however, for credit toward another MS device (SP4) whereas Gazelle is for cash, so its nor exactly the same offer... IF you are the owner of an SP2, S3 or SP3 and desire to move to the SP4 (which finally has all the updates to make them recommended for normal use), this might be of interest to you.

MS Trade-in Offer page: http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/Surface-Trade-In/categoryID.69758400

Hope this helps!

-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/
 
That is what I was thinking as well. Thank you for your input. Just for kicks, I went back and priced an X1 Yoga versus the P40 Yoga, and while the P40 seems to be a superior machine, when spec'd with similar options, the X1 is significantly more expensive. Is the battery the bid difference here? 4 cell versus 3? Are screens comparable. Can you explain the differences? Thanks, Chris Wagoner
 
Chris,

Generally, the X1 "series" is for those who are willing to pay a premium for "thin & light" vs. the P40 being a bit chunkier and perhaps a bit more robust in most throughput metrics. You are essentially comparing an "executive" class machine to a workstation class machine - "suits vs. slide rulers." There is also the ThinkPad Yoga series - a "business class" device which typically runs a bit less that these but is still a ThinkPad, through and through. It is more robust/durable than the consumer Yoga line but does not explicitly "strive" to be as thin and light or as geeked out as possible (X1 vs P series), budget be damned, LOL.

As far as the battery, the number of cells is not as important to most as is the "Watt hour" (Wh) capacity, and in that regard the P40 and X1 Yoga are (53 Wh vs. 52 Wh, respectively.) IF you plan on using either device in a "clipboard" mode (i.e. scribbling or taking notes with the pen while in a meeting, traversing the subject property, or whatever), the thinner/lighter X1 Yoga would be the preferable device in that respect. Of course, IF you are doing a lot of pen work or even just value something thin and light for reading/reviewing (i.e. not lengthy typing type duties), I believe you should give consideration to the MS Surface Book series. You may read some negative press (mainly by professional bloggers who value "sleep" state) about the SP4 and SB being unreliable running hot, constantly, etc., but I must tell you that this is old and outdated info. I could go into detail about the "Why's" of what was going on, but basically, MS has already delivered software/firmware updates which properly address this item and even the most critical of writers (well, those who really do strive for accuracy over "fanboy-ism") are well satisfied with the device now. Of course, there are still things I'd like to see changes to make the SB more suited to needs of most appraisal/inspector types, but overall it is a device you should consider IMHO. FWIW, I've used a SB as my daily driver since just before public availability. Some items to consider are:
  • Even though the SB is not "mil-spec" rated, the build quality is on par with ThinkPads, MacBook Pro, etc. Like the aluminum of the MBP, the magnesium used on the SB is far less prone to fingerprints than the matte black ThinkPads.
  • The SB is not available with 4GLTE, so the ThinkPads have that as an optional plus. (Not a problem for ME since I easily "tether" - YMMV, and IF it were available, I would get that "just because.")
  • The SB has a detachable screen section which is FAR lighter than even the X1, even thought the screen is both larger and higher resolution - it actually feels pretty remarkable "in hand." Of course, since the screen section is the full tablet, it has to have a smaller battery in it to keep things thin and light. The SB has another battery in the "keyboard section." Actual, real world run times on the two devices is pretty similar at around 8.75 - 9.25 hours in my own tests using various appraiser type programs.
  • The MS pen is on par with the new pens used by Lenovo (both are the "electrostatic" type - you cannot use your old pen with either system.)
  • The ThinkPad has a "FHD" anti-glare screen as standard vs. the SB's larger, higher resolution glossy screen. (in practice, they are mostly comparable in bright conditions but adding a good anti-reflective screen protector makes the SB screen better IMHO.)
  • The SB uses the vastly superior (IMHO) 3:2 aspect ratio for its screen vs. the "video-centric" 16:9 on the Lenovo line. The SB screen is a higher resolution, but that is not necessarily a significant benefit to our use.
  • The SB keyboard is on par with the ThinkPad keyboard for actual use. It took me a while to get over the fact that the SB has "flat" keys vs. the "sculpted" ones on the ThinkPad. Up/down arrow keys are better on the ThinkPad - everyone should do it the way Lenovo does IMHO.
  • The SB track pad is slightly better than the ThinkPad's and both are miles better than previous Windows machines! The ThinkPad still has the TrackPoint ("red nubbin") so if that is important, you should keep that in mind. I find that with the availability of a great track pad and touch/pen, I am not really missing the TrackPoint like I thought I would.
  • The ThinkPad uses a fingerprint reader for optional secure login (via Windows Hello) whereas the SB uses the uber-cool facial recognition system. That is cool at first, but once the new is worn off, you should tweak the settings to make it less automatic. I can go into more detail on that IF desired, but for now just know that It really IS good, just different.
  • The camera on the SB is finally good enough for document captures (previous to SB and SP4, the rear camera was not good for this) and is, of course, better than the X1 in that regard ;-)
  • The SB has an optional dedicated GPU, but I do not think you would use that much, so I would put my money elsewhere. That said, and I have to stress it again ;-) that unless you are doing some very specific "heavy lifting" (scientific permutations, video rendering - not "watching-, etc.) you really do not need a Core i7. A Core i5 is virtually the equal to a Core i7 in most everyday tasks.
  • The SB is readily available through MS, Best Buy, etc. and most "pro" Lenovo products are on-line only. Hence, most can "fondle" a SB easier than they can an X1. I have found the warranty and accidental drop protection stuff to be more convenient (and a little less expensive) than the Lenovo line recently.

So, when comparing actual "out the door" pricing on an X1 vs. SB, I find that the SB is the better buy (for me, anyway.)

Sorry this was so disorganized - I was out yesterday and am rushing to get ready to head into SA for meetings at the office, so please excuse typos, bad grammar, etc. .

I hope this helps for now. Let me know if you have any specific questions.


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

PS - Lisa Gade has done here usual great job on this X1 vs. SB "Smackdown" video - worth watching IMHO:


/end/
 
Great reviews, both on the smackdown and your experience.Thanks for clearing the battery thing up. Amazing how they market that stuff.
So you have done a flip from a few months ago. You really like this unit! So, I priced one, and cannot find a way to get the unit without an I7. If I want the big drive 512MB+ the price is really high, $3,500 plus tax and no bump case, no pen recharging capabilty, no travel charger, and 3 year max warranty. I can get X1 with I5 and big drive with recharge pen and 4 year warranty ( no case) for $2700 plus tax and P40 with I7 and 16Ram for $2600+/- plus tax. I dont know if it is even possible to get additional warranty on Surface, but looking a $1,000 difference for a unit with smaller screen( yes, it is 3:2, though), but seems like too much of a premium for what I would get? is this a price is no option scenario? Thanks for your great expertise and help as always. It is greatly valued and appreciated, the detail and real world stuff you provide.. Chris Wagoner
 
Chris,

My thoughts on the SB and me recommending it for use by the typical residential appraisers has not really changed except that since the latest updates, it is more viable for some users - generally more high end types and/or "commercial appraisers." What I was trying to convey was that IF you were going to go with something like an X1 Yoga and you valued a lighter weight "tablet" (only) feature, you might as well throw the SB into the mix for consideration. I understand your numbers and the points made, though were I was going was in the Core i5, 256GB non-DGPU model that is running $1,899. Due to limited availability, the SB is not as "configurable" as something like the X1, P40, TPY, or the excellent HP Elite line. Once you cross into the need (?) for a 512 GB or larger SSD, you will simply have more choices for tweaking the configuration with the ThinkPad and Elite lines. Still, you won't have the form factor offered by the SB, no matter how it is configured. For ME, that is important, but I'm not saying it would be for YOU. I do think, however, that IF you think the detachable "pure tablet" form factor feature MIGHT influence your decision, you should strive for the opportunity to do some fondling before deciding. IF that is not a factor, then I would concentrate on the ThinkPad and HP Elite offerings. For YOU, the ThinkPad line is a better known commodity since you own an earlier model. You are also familiar with the HP Elite line having considered it a while back and even more recently.

I offer the following info just for your consideration, and not to suggest that MY experiences and work load, flow, etc. are very similar. I own 2 Surface Books for personal use - one is an early Core i7, 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD, DGPU model and the other is a more "pedestrian" Core i5, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD model. (The one I bought has the DGPU, but I traded internally at Apex for a non-DGPU model for my own test purposes and to let the other person get the use of the "better" machine.) Anyway, I find myself using the "regular" model as my daily driver and am not running into resource (RAM or storage) constraints. As I have written earlier, ALL my machines have SD cards of varying sizes in them at all times, so my actual max storage is always more than the base amount in the SSD. The SD card is used primarily for auto-back-up/"failsafe" functions but I also sometimes "sneak" a movie or two on there if I am traveling ;-) That said, when I go on longer trips, I take my beefier machine - mainly for the more storage and the DGPU in case I want to play a game or something while away. The extra RAM is nice to have, but not really necessary for MY purposes (nor is the Core i7, really.) Like most geeks, having more always seems better, but if I were to do real time measurements, I feel confident that the little bit of extra oomph of the beefier (and much more expensive) SB comes at a high cost premium and I would therefore not recommend it as a wise choice when real world budgets are in play.

So, for you, I am mainly calling into question (again, LOL) whether you really NEED a Core i7, 16 GB of RAM and/or 512+ GB of storage in a mobile device. Keep in mind my earlier rants and remember what Lisa and others say about this - unless you are routinely doing some fairly specialized things, a Core i7 is of questionable performance benefit even when dealing with a desktop class device, not to mention a ULV CPU as found on thin and light machines. So, IF the "executive thin and light" aspect is a factor, you are going to be dealing with smaller batteries, throttling under load (per ULV CPU design), etc. Moving up to more business class, you get a chunkier design that will mostly cost a bit less per same amount of raw performance at the expense of weight, etc. If pure performance is the goal, moving to a workstation class device will move the needle some more in both performance, and price - sometimes weight, depending on brand/model, etc.

To me, it sounds like you lean toward the performance end of things vs. the thin and light end of the spectrum. That is fine - I just want to encourage you to get what you NEED vs. chase specs for the sake of specs. If the "feature" doesn't really make your job easier, its value is called into question. That said, using myself as an example - I don't really NEED some of the things I buy, either, but I enjoy them so there is the "value in use" end of things ;-)

Let me know if I can help with your decision. I fear that I sometimes offer up too many thoughts on alternatives and end up making folks overthink things like this. I mainly wanted to point out to YOU (in particular, since your outlook on this stuff is decidedly atypical from what I see from most appraisers) that a SB might work out for you and that you should look at it if/when you can. If you end up with a ThinkPad or HP Elite, you'll be getting a helluva machine that'll last you for years. In any case, I'll follow your decision(s) with interest and I hope you let everyone know the good, the bad and the ugly ;-)


Regards,


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/
 
Gotcha.. Your opinions are wanted always in every way and your recommendations are spot on for everything I have worked with. I like the fact that you have even stretched me a little by taking things a little further out in different scenarios. I do border on that appeal factor, but know I am better off with a workhorse from past history. The big Item I am not going to compromise on this time is space and have learned that I never have enough space. Management helps, but it always seem I have to manage something right in the middle of a busy time. I too am carrying an SD cards with me for additional storage, the one in right now is 128GB. It is getting me through, So, going with 512 GB SSD, I have little options on processor and/or RAM, as this drive bumps me up to higher category with most every machine. The removable tablet style screen does tempt me as does the thin and light X1 category, but am not sure for me it is the best bang for the buck. I have in the past felt that the tablets were a little difficult to handle in the field and tend to slip put of my hands. Never dropped my X220t. Stays safe and sound in the sleeve. I am still not finding anywhere I can really look at these things as I live too far away from stores that stock. Do you know of anyone making the bump cases or field sleeves for any of these units anymore?. Have had difficulty finding anything, and may resort to custom making one myself. Thanks again for all of your insight and tips. Everything we have discussed over the years is gold adn assists me greatly in making business decisions. Have always had great luck with equipment you have reviewed and recommended. You are the best rescource I know for these "toys" Thanks again. Will keep you posted... Chris Wagoner
 
Chris,

Thanks for the kind words! I have a few questions, the answers to which may help me narrow things down a bit. Are you wanting more of a tablet that can also work as a laptop or vice versa - a laptop that can also work in tablet mode? Are you envisioning using the device as a possible desktop replacement? I seem to remember that you docked your X220T in the past but that you also had a "big box" at a desk where you did your heavy lifting. The reason I ask is that I am wondering if an SP4 could fit the bill when mobile and then just dock it at your desk. The new keyboard on the SP4 is a great improvement over the previous one and the SP4 with a Core i5 and a 512 GB SSD ranges from $1,699 to $1,899 with 16 GB of RAM. When you move up to a Core i7, you have to go to 16 GB of RAM to get a 512 GB SSD and it runs $2,199 and you can go "all out" but moving up to a 1 TB drive for $2,699 (!) So, IF a tablet that can handle laptop duties in the field as well as arguably work as a desktop replacement, the $1,699 to $1,899 (plus goodies) compares favorably to the SB's more limited options. It helps that the SP4 costs a little less, too. My younger "road warrior" types ended up preferring an SP4 for travel over an equivalent (CPU, RAM, SSD) SB and they dock them to multiple monitors when in the office. Mostly, they use 32" monitors and a second 20" monitor in portrait mode while still using the SP4 screen as a small window into "chat/Skype/etc."

All that said, if you do not highly prize the "thin and light" aspects, have you looked at the ThinkPad Yoga line? This line is available in a 260 and 460 model (12.5" and 14.1", respectively) and is a "regular" (i.e. non-workstation-class) device which carries a lower price tag. They are available in Core i3 - Core i7 variants, 4GB - 16 GB of RAM and up to 512 GB SSDs.

Note that both are available with up to 1920x1080 screens but the 14.1" is glossy. Both have active pens and they typical options for accidental drop protection policies, etc. As far as form factor, they are ULV machines so not as beefy in the CPU/GPU end of things as the workstation devices and their available DGPUs, but both would be superior to your X220T by quite a bit. FWIW, Robert still uses my 2nd Gen TP Yoga (i7) as his heavy lifter device but his Surface Pro for regular day-to-day tasks. Both of these newer TPYs are beefier than my previous generation unit, and all of them are considerably thinner and lighter than my X220T, so in that regard, these would be worthy upgraded replacements. The TPY is a very nice machine and is available at lower pricing than the workstation P class devices. All that said, the TYP when configured like a "baseline" P40 is only a little less expensive. The main thing you get is a lighter device with the TPY vs. workstation stuff (incl. a DGPU) in the base P40 which weighs about a pound or so more. You can, of course, move from the required Core i7 in the P40 to a more reasonable (again IMHO only) Core i5 in the TPY and perhaps uses some of that savings to up your RAM, add more time to your warranty or add accessories.

Lisa's review of the TPY 260:


Anyway, something to think about. Hope this helps!

-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/
 
Certainly. As I have done more traveling in the past couple of years and expect to do some more, I am finding that is difficult for me to to do a lot on a 12.3 inch screen, old eyes, etc.... and I have had a few problems with my screen on x220t. Covered under warranty and replaced the first time, but had run out of warranty by about 2 months and would not cover the second time which I am still living with. No rant, is what it is. The left side of my screen is literally missing. about 2.5 inches. Black, or some sometimes monochrome zenith green, but will not show anything. I am working on 5.5 years on this thing, so it is time to upgrade. Anyway, that makes the screen even smaller. But, even when the screen was working correctly, was still a little difficult to use on the road in my lap. Hence, I would like a minimal 14" screen, and was seriously entertaining the HP 15.6' convertible unit you and others explained the " non-robustness?" issues. After actually picking one up and walking around with one, it was maybe a little large of a tablet as well.

So my workflow is docked at home with all the goodies(did away with big box when I purchased x220) I do business only on this device and internet surfing, but little else and am only one that uses the device. At this time I do little "other heavy lifting". Have done significant travel with unit in my lap or on a table, and as heavy as business is right now, 2-4 field inspections per day as well as construction and compliance inspections that need sent from site and countless updates, corrections, re-uploads, website access, write-ups between, etc. I need everything a central place to be with me where I am so I can be mobile as possible with 2 little kids and a wife that likes to go places. So, I need a pretty powerful standalone device with as big as screen as possible. The x220t was small and weighed close to 4 lbs I think, I have the big battery. I used an ipad a little in the past, and just could not hold on to it, So I am not sure a tablet is a good fit. I am not against trying one out, as the surface book intrigues me. How much run time does one actually get with the tablet undocked from keyboard? How does it recharge? is it cumulative? can I do an inspection 1hr+/- then drive 10 min to another inspection and do it again without running out of charge? Also want to bluetooth disto with the new unit if possible, hogging more battery. Roundabout answer, but I think what I want is a good laptop that is part tablet.

I had looked at the 260 but had not seen anything on Lenovo site about the 460 until you linked it above. I am looking at a desktop replacement (my x220t is the desktop now docked, 3 USB backup drives, 30" dell screen, keyboard, printer, wireless mouse, ethernet, etc....) I like the 460 enough, but specs same price as P40 and has smaller drive (256GB) and like you said, glossy screen. I cannot find a way to spec the P40 with anything other than an I7. Doesnt seem to add much to price all told. Thanks again for all of your input. Am eagerly awaiting your responses.... Chris Wagoner
 
Hi Chris - sorry for the delay! I had a relative who was in hospice and I've been dealing with that. I will be gone the end of this week for services so I wanted to get this away before I had to leave.

Summarily, and FWIW, I agree with your "260/460 vs. P40" observations - for you that may end up being the better choice. Just know that you are not likely really requiring a workstation class configuration and the DGPU doesn't sound like it will do much more than idle ;-) That said, in the given price range, having a little more capability than you strictly need is not a bad position to be in.

I know this won't likely matter, but recognize that the DGPU is a Quadro card, which is meant for engineering stuff, not game stuff. A Quadro card will give you improved performance over an integrated Intel graphics system in most applications, but a regular consumer GeForce card will routinely outperform the more expensive Quadro card in games. If you don't play demanding games, that won't matter to you. Of course, if you ever start using engineering type apps, you'll be happy you have a Quadro. OK, enough on that, LOL.

As I mentioned, the P40 is a bit "chunky" when compared to the X1 and the Surface Book, but it sounds like you don't place a high priority on the "thin and light" aspects. Coming from an X220T, the weight of a P40 won't seem bad to you and, in fact, may seem lighter due to the larger chassis (psychological effect.) IF you want to go a little more "svelte", the X1 brings that to the table, albeit at a higher price that may not be worth it to you. The SB is my personal "do all" device of choice, but again, your usage is different than mine - I am mainly using it in Laptop mode and only use it in tablet mode for testing purposes whereas you do actual, real world property inspections. I can only imagine that IF I were still actively appraising, I would value the detachable tablet aspect... As for battery life, I am getting around 4 hours of regular use when detached and about 9 hours when attached to the keyboard. I always have a car charger with me in my glove box (old habits die hard) but if I am traveling, I have yet to actually use it - I simply reattach the tablet section to the keyboard section when I get in the car... The 13.5" screen sounds smaller (well, mathematically, it is smaller, LOL) but in real world work usage (vs. watching videos), the 3:2 aspect ratio makes it a much better screen - you can actually see more things that matter due to the aspect ratio. IMHO, all work devices like this should ditch 16:9 screens (YMMV...) Again, this is because all (most?) regular programs have stuff (menus, task bars, etc.) on the top and bottom, so your vertical space is at a premium - and it gets more precious as the screen size decreases! On a huge, high-res desktop, a 16:9 screen is not bad, but on a laptop, it is not a good choice. Your Dell is a 16:10 monitor at 2560 x 1600, and it is a great one. I now use a 16:9 monitor as my main screens, but it is a 40" UHD (3840 x 2160) so the combination of higher resolution and larger size combine to make it an upgrade, but as I go smaller, the aspect ratio makes a big difference in my day-to-day usage. Don't misunderstand - the 14" 16:9 screen on the P40 will be an upgrade to your X220T screen (even if it were actually working, LOL) so I am not advocating that you go with a Surface Book based on that alone. The SB has its detracting items - the screen is glossy, and while it has built-in aspects that minimize the glare, the matte finish on the P40 would likely seem better to you out of the box. For me, even though I much prefer a matte screen, I was able to live with the "raw" screen and eventually put an anti-reflective screen protector on it, largely out of preference (vs. absolute performance.) I have not found a plethora of bump case/straps for the SB tablet (hereinafter "clipboard" as that is the term their marketing people use) but then I've not found any for the P40 or X1 yet, either. When I get back, I will look around some more as others ask me this all the time and very few actually volunteer info when they do find something themselves :-\ FWIW, I have used strips of Velcro to attach a strap to much heaver devices and found it to work just fine, but I completely understand that most of us want a pre-engineered "bump case" type solution that we can find on Amazon with 5 stars and just click on it for 2nd day delivery ;-)

So, all that said, once again there is no "perfect" solution for you - each of the top units involve some sort of compromise. You will need to weigh the pro and con aspects and see which fits YOU the best. I can only help by describing what I have learned through my own experience added to feedback from other appraisers. I wish you could easily go fondle each unit yourself side-by-side, but I recognize that your more remote location doesn't make that easy (understood - I used to live in the sticks, too.) I will say, however, that this selection is obviously a very important decision for you and is something you plan on living with for another 5 years (or more?) so IF any of the items I have highlighters are of concern, it may be worth your time to travel to town again an schedule stops for fondling. In the end, though, each machine we've discussed is a quality piece - I can imagine that they will perform (more than) adequately, and will be a welcome upgrade over your ailing X220T. I'd not spend much more time "agonizing" over smaller details as it seems to me that you really need (vs. just want) something and the longer you delay, the more frustrating it is (loss of productivity?)

[Edit] - Finally, there is the 4G LTE thing. As you know, the SB does not offer built-in 4G LTE but that is offered in certain Lenovo models (some "coming soon"?) so you'll need to really think that through. Also, consider carrier choices IF that is an area of concern. As an example, the HP Spectre X2 is a pretty good device for the buck but the 4G LTE is only through Verizon. The Verizon limitation absolutely kills it for me, but may not be a factor for others - so YMMV on that stuff. Again, I can easily "tether" so "no big deal" there, but that may be different for you and (as I said before) IF I had an option for built-in 4G LTE through AT&T on my Surface devices, I would absolutely get that, even though it doesn't actually make the best economic sense for me - We all have our own individual "hot buttons"... ;-)

Please let me know how I can help. I know I get long-winded and many time my posts sort of "meander"... :-\ So, if you "bullet" some specific questions, it will be easier for me to anser in a more organized (and perhaps slightly more concise? LOL) fashion. I am happy to do so in hopes that it helps you and/or other members here. I'll be around today but likely traveling tomorrow through Saturday.


Regards,

-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/
 
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