Are we required to obtain permits?

[Mike Kennedy]

There is a mixing of zoning compliance issues with permit issues.

If you review the local Township ordinance I posted for the OP, for example, it is a good example of a Zoning Ordinance which includes Building Code requirements. The Writers of the GSE requirements also followed that format.

There are many municipalities with either similar "Combo" ordinances or distinctly separate Zoning and Building Code Ordinances. Whether stand-alone, or combo, compliance is the responsibility of a property owner.

When such ordinances exist, and a scope of work assignment condition requires identification, confirmation and an opinion as to whether the site "as-improved" apparently represents a Legal, LNC, or Illegal Use as of an Effective Date of Appraisal - that responsibility rests with the Appraiser.

 

[CANative]

I'm not sure you understand the issues 23 Degrees. You must work in a weird little city in California.

Fnbpos outlined the situation very well. He (?) could have gone even further by outlining the differences between allowed uses and permitted uses.

 

[23Degrees]

I've been wrong before so maybe Mr. Can. But there are a lot of "weird" little and big cities in California that link zoning code to building code by General Provision or otherwise. Answering the mandatory question with regard to zoning compliance as "legal" in an "as is" report when there is clear evidence to the contrary would be misunderstanding the situation IMO.

As for his outline that slipped in the old "cost to cure" trick to get around this whole issue - yes, he explained it very well and hopefully he is correct that zoning code has no permit indications or building code links where he works - Not the case in my weird little city. Garage conversion or bootleg addition would be "illegal" in an "as is" report no matter how many pages were used to describe it or what "cost to cure" someone hired a contractor to determine or yanked out of thin air to try and circumvent applying a proper HC.

 

[Sarge]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Sarge]

If you want to be the permit police then dont be surprised to one day to be sued by a homeowner because YOU called down to the town zoning department and opened up a "can of worms" that will never be closed....

..not only that, but you are discussing confidential information about the subject property with someone (the town) who is not your client.

You ARE not, and SHOULD not be the permit police. But, if you are...good luck with that...its beyond your scope, why put yourself in the crosshair ???

You are out of your mind. I just appraised a property in Keller, Texas. The property was supposed to be 1,700 per tax roll. When I got to the property it had a 1,400 square foot second floor addition (that had been built by their son) and is now about 3,100 square feet. Per local laws, new additions have to be permitted by the City. If the are not then they are illegal. It took me a total of about 5 minuets to fins out the there have been no permits for the new addition which includes square footage, electrical work, and plumbing. You mention getting "sued by opening up a can of works". What do you think will happen if it burns down? I can guarantee you that "it was not in my scope of work" would not freaking fly. I was told by the building department that for the new addition to be property permitted after the fact then qualified personnel (licensed electricians, plumbers, etc) would have to not only come out to the property (at the owners expense) but would certainly have to remove a considerable amount of sheetrock, fixtures, etc....all at the owners expense.

I know a lot of appraiser's disagree with me on this. I have just never EVER been provided a different argument other than it outside of our scope of work. Last time I checked, legally permissible is within our scope of work. This dumbass argument that you will get sued by verifying a permit is asinine.

 

[normando]

I check permits because they're wealth of information. You get history of when kitchen and bathroom were remodeled. How do you verify or take owner's opinion or do you just say unknown to date range in the UAD form?

 

[Mike Garrett RAA]

33+ years appraising and I have never gone to the regional building department and pulled a permit. I do, every so often, go on line and see if a permit was pulled for something such as a sun room addition if I have concerns. I will comment on "lack of permit" in my appraisal report; however, we have typically found lack of permit negatively affecting value.

What normally happens in this market if the improvement wasn't "permitted", the regional building department will require an application for permit along with an inspection and a fine. How about situations were permits were pulled but no final inspection completed? I have also seen situations where there were permits and inspections passed and the improvements really were not done to code.

It's not my job being a permit policeman. I am an appraiser and I offer an opinion of value based on the market. I also make certain assumptions when performing an appraisal including the highest and best use. That highest and best use should be a legal use with improvements completed legally. Notice the use of the work "legal"? My certification states I am not not responsible for things of a legal nature.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

http://www.springsgov.com/Page.aspx?NavID=1030


7.10.106: VIOLATIONS:
Any person violating any provision of the Building Code shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars ($500.00), or imprisoned not more than ninety (90) calendar days in the City jail or County jail, or both.

A separate offense shall be deemed committed for each and every calendar day during which such illegal erection, construction, reconstruction, alteration, maintenance, or use continues. In case any building or structure is or is proposed to be erected, constructed, reconstructed, altered or remodeled, used or maintained in violation of the Building Code or of any provision of the Building Code, the City Attorney, in addition to other remedies provided by law, may institute an appropriate action for injunction, mandamus or abatement to prevent, enjoin, abate or remove such unlawful erection, construction, reconstruction, alteration, remodeling, maintenance or use. (Ord. 05-135)
http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=855

 

[Mike Garrett RAA]

While the City of Colorado Springs has building codes...issuing of permits and enforcement is handled by a Regional Building Department. That department covers all of El Paso and Teller Counties.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

While the City of Colorado Springs has building codes...issuing of permits and enforcement is handled by a Regional Building Department. That department covers all of El Paso and Teller Counties.

Section 1.13 El Paso County
http://adm.elpasoco.com/Development%20Services/Pages/LandDevelopmentCode.aspx

El Paso Enforcement Chapter 11

11.3. ZONING VIOLATIONS
11.3.1. Unlawful Acts
It is unlawful to use real property or improvements thereon; to develop real property, to erect, construct, reconstruct, remodel, restore or improve a building or structure, or to alter the use of any real property or improvements thereon in any way not in accordance with this Code or with the terms and conditions of any development application approval or development permit, or without first obtaining all development approvals and permits required by this Code.

11.3.2. Enforcement Procedures
This section sets forth the enforcement options available and the presumed progression of enforcement actions that may be taken by the DSD Director to address violations. Nothing in this Section shall prevent the DSD Director from exercising discretion to pursue administrative, civil, or criminal remedies or any combination thereof.

If the violation is not corrected within the time period established in the notice of violation or written extension of time the alleged violator may be subject to the administrative remedies and civil and criminal penalties provided for in this Section.
http://adm.elpasoco.com/Development...ent Code/(27) (FINAL) LDCChapter 11-Rev2a.pdf


Teller County online permit investigation tool
http://www.co.teller.co.us/CDSD/BuildingDept.aspx

http://www.co.teller.co.us/CDSD/Building/BuildingCode.aspx

"The Building Department shall not issue a building permit for construction of any type structure, or placement of manufactured, factory built, or mobile housing, on a property that has been identified by the Environmental Health Department as being in violation of any Sewage Disposal Regulations or other applicable standards, statutes, ordinances, requirements, and/or for which any required Sewage Disposal permit has not been obtained.

The Building Department shall not issue a building permit for construction of any type of structure, or placement of manufactured, factory built, or mobile housing, on a property that has been identified as having an existing building code violation under this Code or other applicable standards, statutes, ordinances, or requirements and/or for which any required building permit has not been obtained."

http://www.co.teller.co.us/CDSD/Building/TCBC rev12-06-12.pdf

An "ordinary" assumption, an Extraordinary Assumption, or a Hypothetical Condition must be credible.